Brand new AT-LPW40WN, speed issue.

[ClayTune]

Hello all,

I really wanted to try out a decent starter Belt drive turntable. So I did a fair amount of research, as well as watching youtube reviews and reading amazon reviews. I landed eventually at this model, which has about a 90% approval rating from Amazon and only one specific post mentioned anything about speed issues. But was a one off issue, apparently. Every other review seems good. So I pulled the trigger.

It actually came in the mail yesterday, Halloween day. Excited I skipped my horror movie marathon to focus on set up of the table, which took me about an hour total with protractor and everything else.

The thing sounded so good out of the box with my brief set up. It still does, however, one thing I have noticed is that when I play anything alongside its digital counterpart, after a few seconds of play the digital file always ends up ahead by a second or two. Now, I thought I was noticing something tonight when I came home and started listening to some of my favorite SLOW music, but I was like hmm that sounds slower than it usually does so played it alongside the digital file and low and behold, slower every time.

Now, this model is supposed to have a built in speed sensor to account for accuracy variances.

I know the Fluance tables have servo mechanism built in, but I don't have $500 to spend. And I AT is a Trusted brand, so that's why I pulled the trigger without worry.

I called Amazon and they sent out an immediate replacement which will come in a couple days. Now, I am wondering if there is an issue I should be cognizant of. Because I love the way it sounds otherwise. I mean the damn thing is great in terms of low signal to noise ratio, the wow and flutter are way lower than any of my Direct Drive tables, but the speed thing is slightly disappointing.

I checked the belt, it is all in tact. Not sure how "tight" it's supposed to be out of the box but it's loose tight, in other words it fits around the platter bottom perfectly without having to stretch it too much, which I am hoping is normal.

Played about 10 records so far, no skipping, no sibilance issues, no tracking noise. Everything is aligned, sounds great but slightly slower than digital.

I am tempted to call Audio-technica and interrogate them on the exact nature of this "speed accuracy sensor" since it is not described in detail anywhere I can find.

All Thoughts and considerations all greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[jrtrent]

All Thoughts and considerations all greatly appreciated.

One thing you might do to get some data to give AT is to time out a few tracks. I just tried that with my AT-LP120XUSB using the running time listed for the track and a stopwatch function I found for free on the internet. Now, you can't expect to start and stop the stopwatch for every track with perfect precision, but you should definitely see if your 'table is running grossly slow. On the track I just tried, the time I got was 2/3 of a second fast. I did not take note of the running time first as I did not want to be anticipating the number it was supposed to end at.

Not every record gives the running time for each track, so you might need to look at a few of your records to find one. I think this will help you and AT more than just saying your 'table runs slower than a digital source.

Edit: By the way, the DIN standard for speed accuracy for "high fidelity" turntables is one percent slow to one and a half percent fast.

 

[beat_truck]

Print out a strobe disc from vinylengine. It's free, and you will know for sure whether it is running slow or not. It it isn't running at the correct speed and there is no way to adjust it, I would return it for a refund and find a better turntable.

IMO, if a turntable won't run at the correct speed without wavering, it is unacceptable and not worth owning.

 

[patient_ot]

AT is very good at making cartridges but doesn't make their own turntables. The turntables are all Hanpin or Ya Horng OEM with a brand name slapped on them. I don't really recommend them at all.

If you are pitch sensitive and your budget is limited, I'd recommend looking for a used Japanese direct drive turntable of some sort, preferably one that has been serviced. Check shops in your area that sell used stereo equipment.

 

[beat_truck]

AT is very good at making cartridges but doesn't make their own turntables. The turntables are all Hanpin or Ya Horng OEM with a brand name slapped on them. I don't really recommend them at all.

If you are pitch sensitive and your budget is limited, I'd recommend looking for a used Japanese direct drive turntable of some sort, preferably one that has been serviced. Check shops in your area that sell used stereo equipment.

That would be my recommendation, too. I am partial to Technics DDs.

Though, if you get a Hanpin that is a middle-of-the-week special and not defective junk, they can be OK. I am very pitch sensitive anymore, and have Stanton T.90 that I got for basically nothing. It is actually passable W&F / pitch wise. The preamp / USB circuitry is noisy and unacceptable, though. If I can't unload the turntable, that crap is going to get ripped out.

 

[The Slider]

There's usually an adjustment screw with DC servo motors, often two, one for 33 and one for 45, but I don't see any mention of that in the manual. In any case, you can't just assume that the CD is mastered at the same speed as the record, or the correct speed. You should put a little sticky or something on the edge of the platter, start the record and play it while counting revolutions for 3 minutes. There should be exactly 100.

 

[DavidTT]

Phone RPM apps are available for free that will give you a good sense for the speed accuracy and W&F of your machine. As others have noted, there might be speed trim adjustment available as well. I've owned machines from YaHorng and Hanpin and was happy with them. If you happen to have a bum one I have little doubt the replacement machine will spin steady for you.

 

[ClayTune]

AT is very good at making cartridges but doesn't make their own turntables. The turntables are all Hanpin or Ya Horng OEM with a brand name slapped on them. I don't really recommend them at all.

If you are pitch sensitive and your budget is limited, I'd recommend looking for a used Japanese direct drive turntable of some sort, preferably one that has been serviced. Check shops in your area that sell used stereo equipment.

I actually own like 4 direct drive turntables. 3 of which are technics models. But I was noticing, on all of them, audible wow and flutter, oddly, I am not noticing that on the belt drive one, which was the entire purpose of it.

They sent me a replacement model, but what I might do, if I get the same response from it, is return that one too and just save another hundred or so for a Fluance. At least they explain how their belt drive speeds are controlled with specifics.

Audio technica is an electronics goods company then? Like Best Buy?

 

[ClayTune]

Phone RPM apps are available for free that will give you a good sense for the speed accuracy and W&F of your machine. As others have noted, there might be speed trim adjustment available as well. I've owned machines from YaHorng and Hanpin and was happy with them. If you happen to have a bum one I have little doubt the replacement machine will spin steady for you.

I guess I was simply wondering what the odds were I would get the Bum one? lol

 

[jrtrent]

They sent me a replacement model, but what I might do, if I get the same response from it, is return that one too and just save another hundred or so for a Fluance. At least they explain how their belt drive speeds are controlled with specifics.

Have you tried any of the methods proposed here to find out more exactly just how slow your AT is, such as using a phone rpm app or seeing if it takes 4 minutes to play a 3-minute song?

 

[ODS123]

Find a long song that you have both on vinyl and on cd (or digitally). For me, this might be: Bob Dylan’s Desolation Row or Traffic’s Low Spark of High-heeled Boys. Cue them up and start them at the same time then Switch between them using the input selector on your receiver/amp. Do they remain synced through the entire song? If not, the problem is not the CD player, it’s the turntable. But if the table gains or looses only a few seconds over a ten minute song, then the speed inaccuracy is probably inaudible while listening to music.

Wow and flutter is a separate issue. Generally, direct drive turntables are superior, provided there are quartz-locked. If your direct drives have audible wow and flutter then they are likely either not quartz-locked or are not functioning properly. But here again, I would compare a few songs you have on a CD with songs you have on vinyl. Play them both and listen for the wow and flutter on the CD that you were hearing on vinyl. You might be surprised to find that it’s actually in the recording itself.

 

[MX117.MC7150]

I actually own like 4 direct drive turntables. 3 of which are technics models. But I was noticing, on all of them, audible wow and flutter, oddly, I am not noticing that on the belt drive one, which was the entire purpose of it.

They sent me a replacement model, but what I might do, if I get the same response from it, is return that one too and just save another hundred or so for a Fluance. At least they explain how their belt drive speeds are controlled with specifics.

You should download the app on your cell phone and check the rotation speed on all your TTs. Your stating that all the DD TTs have audible wow & flutter makes me wonder if perhaps you've fallen prey to the internet BS that DD TTs have more than BD TTs. If your measurements show they do, then there is something wrong with them and they need repair. Also, have you checked the speed on your CDP? Perhaps it is running fast.

 

[knotscott]

...Audio technica is an electronics goods company then? Like Best Buy?

As far as I know Best Buy is a retailer, and A-T is a Japanese manufacturer of several audio related items (mics, carts, headphones, etc) but they outsource the manufacture of most (if not all) of their TT's. Some are very capable of sounding good. Does the music playback actually sound slow on the LP-W40WN, or is it just a visual observation?

 

[Gary Francks]

Or stop comparing and just play records on it!
Do you enjoy what your hearing when you do?
Do you tap your feet to the music?
Or are you sitting on the edge of your seat waiting for the music to end?
So what if a three minute song ends a couple of seconds early or late, I very much doubt If Id hear or even notice the difference.

 

[patient_ot]

I actually own like 4 direct drive turntables. 3 of which are technics models. But I was noticing, on all of them, audible wow and flutter, oddly, I am not noticing that on the belt drive one, which was the entire purpose of it.

They sent me a replacement model, but what I might do, if I get the same response from it, is return that one too and just save another hundred or so for a Fluance. At least they explain how their belt drive speeds are controlled with specifics.

Audio technica is an electronics goods company then? Like Best Buy?

If you own 3 Technics models and they exhibit audible w/f, then something is WRONG. Either with the record or the turntable. Off-center records are common but also common are improper setup and a lack of proper maintenance. ANYTHING 30-40+ years old is going to need maintenance. Common issues I've seen are old failing caps and pitch pots that need to be cleaned out and readjusted but there can also be other problems. If you search for the specific models you have here you are likely to find troubleshooting/repair threads about them.

I don't know if the AT : BB comparison is a good analogy. Probably not. Like many other companies, they have some products that are made by factories they own and other products which are almost entirely, or entirely produced by a 3rd party OEM.

Fluance is mainly a marketing company with third party OEM manufacturing. ALL of their TTs, from what I've seen, are made by Ya Horng.

Re: phone speed apps I don't really recommend them for two reasons. 1) they rely heavily on the accuracy of the gyroscope in the specific phone 2) they rely heavily on absolutely perfect centered placement of the phone on the spindle of the TT. Some are not very accurate at all no matter how they are used.

Most people trying to check speed at home without specialized equipment should use a strobe disc as described above.

 

[ClayTune]

If you own 3 Technics models and they exhibit audible w/f, then something is WRONG. Either with the record or the turntable. Off-center records are common but also common are improper setup and a lack of proper maintenance. ANYTHING 30-40+ years old is going to need maintenance. Common issues I've seen are old failing caps and pitch pots that need to be cleaned out and readjusted but there can also be other problems. If you search for the specific models you have here you are likely to find troubleshooting/repair threads about them.

I don't know if the AT : BB comparison is a good analogy. Probably not. Like many other companies, they have some products that are made by factories they own and other products which are almost entirely, or entirely produced by a 3rd party OEM.

Fluance is mainly a marketing company with third party OEM manufacturing. ALL of their TTs, from what I've seen, are made by Ya Horng.

Re: phone speed apps I don't really recommend them for two reasons. 1) they rely heavily on the accuracy of the gyroscope in the specific phone 2) they rely heavily on absolutely perfect centered placement of the phone on the spindle of the TT. Some are not very accurate at all no matter how they are used.

Most people trying to check speed at home without specialized equipment should use a strobe disc as described above.

Which strobe disc is considered most accurate? On the Direct drive tables I own, it's like a weird flutter sound on cymbals and when the musical passages get busy. It becomes sort of jumbled on pop and rock. Muddy even.

I do not notice this at all on the belt drive thus far. What are the chances every one of my direct drive's has the same problem? Also, could it be a bad receiver TT combination? I have a tendency of using receivers with Pure direct. I am considering trying new receiver in another room. I don't have room in one room for everything.

Oh I wanna edit in here that every single turntable is painstakingly set up with protractors, digital gauges, bubble levels, blank discs and everything else recommended here.

 

[ClayTune]

Or stop comparing and just play records on it!
Do you enjoy what your hearing when you do?
Do you tap your feet to the music?
Or are you sitting on the edge of your seat waiting for the music to end?
So what if a three minute song ends a couple of seconds early or late, I very much doubt If Id hear or even notice the difference.

Yea I feel your point, and I am tapping my toe to it. My objective is to get Pop and Rock music sounding as good as possible with any of these turntables. Jazz and classical almost always sound amazing. Rock and pop show a lot more wow and flutter for some off reason. But thus far on THIS model I don't notice it.

 

[ClayTune]

As far as I know Best Buy is a retailer, and A-T is a Japanese manufacturer of several audio related items (mics, carts, headphones, etc) but they outsource the manufacture of most (if not all) of their TT's. Some are very capable of sounding good. Does the music playback actually sound slow on the LP-W40WN, or is it just a visual observation?

Well, I thought I noticed a slight slow down on rock music. And lo and behold when I play youtube videos of a song in exact tandem with the record, the record always ends up 2-3 seconds behind the youtube digital play back. They sent me a replacement unit I have yet to set it up. This is my first day of work in a week and I am relaxing but later today I plan to pry into it.

 

[patient_ot]

Which strobe disc is considered most accurate? On the Direct drive tables I own, it's like a weird flutter sound on cymbals and when the musical passages get busy. It becomes sort of jumbled on pop and rock. Muddy even.

I do not notice this at all on the belt drive thus far. What are the chances every one of my direct drive's has the same problem? Also, could it be a bad receiver TT combination? I have a tendency of using receivers with Pure direct. I am considering trying new receiver in another room. I don't have room in one room for everything.

Oh I wanna edit in here that every single turntable is painstakingly set up with protractors, digital gauges, bubble levels, blank discs and everything else recommended here.

What you are describing does not happen on any of the three DD decks I own - two vintage, one a brand new 1200MK7.

It is VERY common for old equipment to have issues due to failing caps, burned out components, things drifting out of spec, poor/no maintenance, etc. Unless your old DD deck has been gone over by a tech that knows what they are doing and the DD mech was checked on an oscilloscope all bets are off. Many things that "appear" to be working correctly, often are not.

Receiver would nothing to do with TT speed, w/f, etc.

Old receivers can sound like mud due to failing caps, phono sections with poor RIAA accuracy, wrong loading for a cartridge, etc. I have a strong dislike for unserviced vintage receivers. In most cases I would recommend a new integrated amp along with a standalone phono stage that has been under some kind of lab or bench test. The phone stage need not be expensive.

HOWEVER, I think in your case you need to look at the TT and find the best one of your old decks, and then get that serviced. What specific models are we talking about here?

For a strobe disk I would use the Conrad Hoffman program, make the sure the printed is correct per scale and instructions. If not, take the PDF printout to a copy shop and have them print it for you until it is correct on thick cardstock or photopaper.

 

[ClayTune]

Find a long song that you have both on vinyl and on cd (or digitally). For me, this might be: Bob Dylan’s Desolation Row or Traffic’s Low Spark of High-heeled Boys. Cue them up and start them at the same time then Switch between them using the input selector on your receiver/amp. Do they remain synced through the entire song? If not, the problem is not the CD player, it’s the turntable. But if the table gains or looses only a few seconds over a ten minute song, then the speed inaccuracy is probably inaudible while listening to music.

Wow and flutter is a separate issue. Generally, direct drive turntables are superior, provided there are quartz-locked. If your direct drives have audible wow and flutter then they are likely either not quartz-locked or are not functioning properly. But here again, I would compare a few songs you have on a CD with songs you have on vinyl. Play them both and listen for the wow and flutter on the CD that you were hearing on vinyl. You might be surprised to find that it’s actually in the recording itself.

I have 4 Direct drive tables, all of which exhibit audible wow and flutter after painstaking set ups with protractors, digital gauges, blank records, bubble levels and an assortment of other audio karma recommendations.

Even the ones that were brand new, such as the numark one, exhibits this issue. Now, this belt drive table I just got does NOT exhibit the wow/flutter issues I am describing. But I did notice that slight slow down of the music play back when comparing it to a digital file. BTW I don't have CDs, not a single one, odd as it may seem. I grew up in the digital era and always owned digital files.

The question is, are digital streamed files speed accurate?

For example I played a Go Go's record with the song "we got the beat" and after 20 seconds of song play it always ends up a second or two behind, no matter how many times I correct it with youtubes pause button. Not sure what to think about that. But I love the warm tone and the quiet passages of this belt drive table, but I would hate to assume I got one with speed issues. Now Amazon did send in a replacement which I received yesterday. I plan to set it up and try it out and compare.

But the so called audiophile turntables seem to all be belt drives for some reason, speaking of the higher end units.