Break-In Necessary on New CD Player?

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E-Stat said:
Sorry. I thought answering your question would be a good thing. My mistake. :)
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Your answer -- and this one -- border on non sequitur. The discussion was about evidence for burn-in in teflon caps. How is the "transparency" of op amps, or the importance of music reproduction (or not), relevant?
 
DaveVoorhis said:
The discussion was about evidence for burn-in in teflon caps. How is the "transparency" of op amps, or the importance of music reproduction (or not), relevant?
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Once again, forget the question you asked of me. I answered it and all you do is refer to the thread topic.
 
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I thought this banner ad was funny and a little ironic as browse this thread:

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I was really hoping with some break in my brand new Emotiva ERC player would sound better as it was a bit "grainy" fresh out of the box. It never changed one iota.
 
E-Stat said:
Once again, you either hear the results or you don't.

Do you ever listen to music? What's your frame of reference?
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E-Stat said:
Once again, forget the question you asked of me. I answered it and all you do is refer to the thread topic.
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We seem to be going in circles. Neither my "frame of reference" (?) nor use of op amps, nor whether I think music reproduction is important or not, have anything to do with whether or not there is evidence for teflon capacitor "burn in".

The evidence (so far) consists only of the fact that some people hear "burn in" or "break in". This raises the question: Are they hearing a change in sound, or is the sound constant and they're experiencing a change in perception?
 
DaveVoorhis said:
We seem to be going in circles. Neither my "frame of reference" (?) nor use of op amps, nor whether I think music reproduction is important or not, have anything to do with whether or not there is evidence for teflon capacitor "burn in".
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Why do you think that every question should?

I really didn't expect you to answer my questions. All I get is a dialtone.
 
E-Stat said:
Why do you think that every question should?

I really didn't expect you to answer my questions. All I get is a dialtone.
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Why would I answer a question about op amps -- or the importance of music reproduction -- in a thread about teflon capacitor burn-in? Doesn't that seem off-topic to you? Or is there a point you were hoping to make that you haven't yet made?
 
OK, after all of that, the final answer is "If anyone dares to ask for any evidence of any claim made by an audio company, one is a clay eared cretin that does not deserve to ever comment on the subject of sound equipment."

Good thing we got that cleared up.
 
this is another one of those issues that will never be clarified.

But if you've played with Russian teflons, and the obsolete Back Gates, then you are
aware of the "break-in" times of these. I recently recap'd a Hafler with organic
polymers and experienced the initial current drains that cycled the sound
(on then off) at about 2 Hz. Nothing on the datasheets indicated this
would happen and only bumped into it on german sites. Since I personally
experienced I would not assume that if the datasheets don't mention
this and its total effects, then it does not exist. It is simply not widespread enough.

I do believe we do not have enough measurement criteria to explain all these just
like TIM in the 1970s that we have now, almost every active device tagged
with a slew rate. With all the subsequent discussions on slew rates.

Asking for negative proof is a waste of time, at least according to those who taught
me logic many years ago. Prove that we didn't have a lunar eclipse 20K years ago...

if we did not have break-in of CD then why servos for track positioning and laser focus,
over-sampling , bit correction (parity, redundancy, duplexing/triplexing, ERCC, erasure coding)
for almost any and everything digitally stored, and hundreds of other reasons. there
would be no need to adjust for less than perfect operation - no infant mortality,
no aging differences in track positioning time and energy, no adjustments of
laser focus mechanisms. Break-in in these cases is simply the entire set of
changes that still stay within design guidelines and the resultant guardbands
necessary for operational consistency and reliability.

then if there are no break-in differences, then there's a case for no design differences
between all red-book designs. then all CDP sound alike. right?

Maybe it's something else like hearing and it's many differences. for example, it is a known
and proven fact that some women can distinguish their baby's cries over other babies
crying. men apparently don't (not going to find that one in 7 billion that might be able to).

then I've known people who can hear a violin and tell what violin it is. they hear,
based on experience, training, and natural ability, all the little nuances that
escape me.

I hope all of you will allow for such experiences.
 
Is it "Necessary" is really moot

We all do it with our new equipment regardless --- Have a 'break-in period' that is

Next nit to pick ???
 
Bob said:
this is another one of those issues that will never be clarified.
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It might never be resolved, but it can be clarified. That's what these discussions are about.
Bob said:
But if you've played with Russian teflons, and the obsolete Back Gates, then you are
aware of the "break-in" times of these. I recently recap'd a Hafler with organic
polymers and experienced the initial current drains that cycled the sound
(on then off) at about 2 Hz. Nothing on the datasheets indicated this
would happen and only bumped into it on german sites. Since I personally
experienced I would not assume that if the datasheets don't mention
this and its total effects, then it does not exist. It is simply not widespread enough.
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You appear to be describing faulty components, or components whose manufacturing standards are unusually poor. When I get a bad component, I bin it if it's cheap or return it if not. I imagine some boutique capacitors may be manufactured with such poor environmental controls or materials that their parameters might well drift significantly as initial use drives out the moisture they've absorbed whilst sitting or being made, but that's a failure mode, not a feature. Capacitors made by mainstream manufacturers do not exhibit such flawed characteristics on startup, and then drift into correct operation over some number of hours. (Though some exhibited flawed characteristics after being used a while. Google "capacitor plague".)
Bob said:
if we did not have break-in of CD then why servos for track positioning and laser focus,
over-sampling , bit correction (parity, redundancy, duplexing/triplexing, ERCC, erasure coding)
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Changeable laser focus and variable track positioning compensate for temperature changes and variations in mechanical tolerance, and error correction mechanisms in digital systems are to allow for bit errors caused by interference. They're not compensation for component break-in.
 
This thread never was about Teflon capacitors.

Some folks do seem to be heavily invested in telling others what they can and cannot hear, however. The motivation seems to be making themselves appear smarter, by way of comparison to others who are presumed dumber.

I am waiting for a capacitor manufacturer to list a "burn-in time" parameter on a product specification sheet. That SHOULD be enough, by the objectivists faulty "appeal to authority" logic, to shut them up. However, I suspect that the manufacturers would just be called liars or slobs, to preserve the superiority of the omniscient internet expert's conceptual being.
 
sqlsavior said:
This thread never was about Teflon capacitors.
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True, it was about "break in" on new CD players, but post #59 used teflon caps as a specific component example. It's a relevant subset of the broader topic, no?
sqlsavior said:
Some folks do seem to be heavily invested in telling others what they can and cannot hear, however.
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That's true, but I don't think anyone was claiming in this thread that people don't hear something they call "break in". But is it due to a change in sound, or is the sound is constant and there's a change in perception?
sqlsavior said:
The motivation seems to be making themselves appear smarter, by way of comparison to others who are presumed dumber.
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No one is claiming to be smarter than anyone else. Claims of "burn in" and subsequent discussion aren't an IQ test, but a discussion amongst equals about evidence of "burn in".
sqlsavior said:
I am waiting for a capacitor manufacturer to list a "burn-in time" parameter on a product specification sheet. That SHOULD be enough, by the objectivists faulty "appeal to authority" logic, to shut them up.
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That would be excellent. A capacitor is defined in terms of specific, measurable parameters. If a capacitor manufacturer notes that "burn-in time" is a factor, then the spec sheets will almost certainly have graphs of capacitor parameters over time that a capacitor user can verify.
sqlsavior said:
However, I suspect that the manufacturers would just be called liars or slobs, to preserve the superiority of the omniscient internet expert's conceptual being.
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Here you appear to be slipping into a strangely speculative and emotional ad hominem retort. Why?
 
DaveVoorhis said:
A capacitor is defined in terms of specific, measurable parameters.
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So are all manner of audio components in terms of simplistic metrics performed using sine waves or static tests.

Do you find those metrics - in any of the examples - fully quantify the audible results? If so, I've got a fantastic preamp for you - the Crown IC-150!

I'm hoping your response will be from an experiential level as opposed to parroting what you find in catalogs. :)
 
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I am wondering where this capacitor, opamp or whatever is in the "system". To me, all cd players sound alike and I have never encountered any burn in effect...
 
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