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C11 v C20 v C22?

T

TBL_HK

Active Member
I own as a starter in recent time a C11 in very good cosmetic condition, running a Marantz 8b and Tannoy Arden 15'.

But since McIntosh valve gears have always been a dream to me, I wonder which valve pre-amp is the ultimate to use and listen to as a daily runner in my living room.

There are many people who advised me from their experience in owning and repairing or selling these vintage units. I have only listened to a late model C20 once, playing Philips CD 205 and Tannoy's. I have the impression that C20 is the most musical unit, and later one with big metal knobs and full-height glass sections are the one to look out for, coz many people have said that this has the least serious volume knob issues due to younger age, and the improvement in the circuitry makes it the best sounding C20.

A C22 (not the re-issue) is often said to be analytical, coz it is an improvement over the C11, and due to younger age, often looks better and less battered than an average C11.

So to me, a real competition for me to observe seems to be between a C11 and a C20, otherwise, and if I never owned a C11, it would be between C20 and C22.

Any advice? Thanks.
 
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I have been thinking about these models recently also. I have had all three at different times, In different systems. I think the C11 and C22 are most alike in design and sonics, with just different cosmetics and face plates. I borrowed a friends C20 briefly, and that seemed to have a bit more drive, warmth and dynamics to it. Is it down to the slightly different tube circuit and having a tube rectifier perhaps?
 
I had a reissue C22 back in the 90s and that was a very nice preamp, wish I still had it. It had a more modern sound than the original.
 
You know it's funny when someone says a Mc piece is 'more musical' , I then equate it to be the 'least desirable.'

I am not a fan of the C20 and never will be. The volume pot is outrageously complicated (though there are upgrades). To me even side-by-side, the so-called lowly C24 sounds better than a C20 - seriously. The C24 does a better job.

The game is really between the C22 and the Mx110, and then I find the C22 to be 'stronger' sounding, that's all.

There really isn't too much of a price difference between the C20 and C22 on Tom Manley's site. I would not waste your time on a C20. A Mx112 (yes, SS) sounds better to me.
 
I have to agree with count D. A vintage C22 in great condition will command a higher price than any of the reissues. The earliest reissue from the 90's is going to be the closest in sound to the original. That was my impression. The MX110 Z series is a great choice if you have the need for a very good tube tuner. The MX110 X series is pretty good and will save you some skrill. (had to us that word for money, I spent all last night watching the "Trailer Park Boy's")
 
All three are nice preamps and the choice will be which one is in the best condition both electrically and cosmetically.

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
The C20 I heard was really good sounding, it had been recapped and restored. It bettered my stock C11 sonically, and my MX110 has some issues which need to be rectified before I comment on it. I don't know why the volume pot on a C20 would be any different than the C22 or C11. The main differences seem to be that the C20 has a tube rectified power supply and the later ones do not. To me the C11 and C22 are the same preamp with just different faces.
 
C20 uses two volume controls per channel one of which turns the preamp up and down and the other turns the source selected up and down. The goal was quieter operation or higher signal to noise.
Modern McIntosh preamps use a similar design but have solid state volume controls. The effect is the same, higher signal to noise ratio.

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
Thanks Ron-C. I remember now, that the C20 has the extra gain controls on the back. The MX110 also has these on top. How different is the actual preamp circuit though, to the C11/C22?
 
C11 and C22 are almost identical. Mainly a packaging change to the later MX110 style and panlocks. The extra gain controls of C20 are not on the back but part of the main volume control. this is not used on C11 and C20.

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
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Thanks again Ron-C. Do you think the C20 sounds that different to the C11/C22? some claim it does due to tube rectification or whatever. And why did the C11 come after the C20?
 
And why did the C11 come after the C20?
Click to expand...

McIntosh pre-amps were never produced in a strictly sequential order - the numbers are often jumbled. This causes never ending confusion about which unit preceded which and which has later controls and features and better specs.

Here is a rundown on the pre-amps in the order introduced:

AE2
C104
C108
C4 & C4P
C8, C8P & C8S
C20 (early, mid, late)
C11
C22
C24
C26
C28
C27
C32
C29
C504
C33
C30
C34V
C31V
C35
C37
C36
C38
C712
C39
C40
C22CE
C100
C42
C41
C45
C46
C15
C2200
C200
C1000C
C220
C500
C2300
C48
C50

You can see the time-line for each of McIntosh’s products on the Berner’s site: http://www.berners.ch/McIntosh/en/Frame_CompendiumT.htm


Larry
 
I have C-20, C-22 reissue and C-11, some in multiples. The C-20 is-by far-the most complicated, with a very large quantity of capacitors in the signal path, all discrete components, lots of options, and can sound good if properly restored.

The C-11 is a much simpler layout inside, and uses some PEK circuits which could be problematical to replace. (Packaged Electronic circuits). The C-22 reissue uses printed circuit board design. They can all sound quite nice.
 
I auditioned the C11 the whole nite before deciding to buy it. Yeah. Believe me, my wife was there too with the seller asking her how she thought the sound was to her.....

After I had bought the C11 in very good cosmetic and electrical condition, I went to hear another C20, an early model with the metal bar and half glass. It was in appalling cosmetic condition coz someone must have attempted at a repair of the glass and inserted a plexi-glass up front the glass. Puke ....... ANyway, the seller was using Philips CD204 CDP, and Tannoy 632 or something co-axial speakers during that audtion.

That particular sample of C20 conspicuously had a dying volume knob coz there was ample noise coming out the speakers whichever way I turned it. Maybe I exaggerated a little bit, but it annoyed me somewhat. It did sound open and detailed, and a little hum was heard at the speakers too. SO i guess it needed a power supply recap and an upgrade to the volume knob. It was a passer to me and I made no offer to buy it at all.

I never auditoned a C22, coz it does look similar to the C11, just an update on the front glass and something here and there. The tubes and the power supply are located in the same compartments, not the case with the C20. That was why I thought that a real comparison would be between a C11 v C20, or C20 v C22.

BTW I like the phono section very much. Everything is so LP-like and lively, airy without sounding blurred.

Trouble is ... After several months of using the C11, I now want another example of this gear in my bedroom, this one being in pristine condition, no hum, no bubbles in the glass, clean swithes, no volume knob noises, no apparent scratches at all.

Someone pls talk me out of this C11 piling up with me plzzzzzzzzz.
 
You might want to try an MX110 just for fun as an alternative. The preamp and tuner are very good and attractive as well. The Zseries are plentiful used. A good C11 is hard to find, very rare. I actually prefer the MX110 phono stage.
 
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fortherecord - I actutally went to hear an MX110 later too. It was not a Z series one. The radio section was weak, and the audio was better than the radio. I guess a more pretty Z series would do it more justice
 
I previously owned a Z-series MX-110, which drove my Marantz 8B for a couple of years... and I thought it sounded fine.

Until I hooked up the early C-20 that had been recapped by Terry DeWick.

Perhaps if the MX-110 had also been electronically restored, the comparison might have been closer, but the C-20 just walks all over the MX-110. Overall, I find it to be not only more accurate, but also more lifelike and musical in the critical midrange area. If your tastes run to vintage music, I can't recommend an **early** C-20 enough. Chances are that any unmolested unit you find will need to be recapped, but it's **well** worth the effort to have that done.

Just my $.02...

- Kevin
 
Kevin,

I heard many people talk about their healthy C20 sounding better than other preamps that they had owned. I just keep running out of luck to hear one in its best condition. My C11s are in good shape but I suspect they too need new caps too. On one of the two C11s I now own, one has had the power supply caps run alongside new ones in parallel. No complaint.
 
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