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C220 disappointment

2uberoller

2uberoller

Super Member
Banned
My c220 is only 5 months old and I have white noise between passages if the volume control is at or above 52 on the volume control. It is worst when I am listening to records. When I am not using phono I always turn the tubes off. Is this normal ? Thinking of trading in for a solid state pre-amp. Advice appreciated
 
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I believe it should be dead quite except the phono.

I am not an expert on why that might be but it seems to be the case. Maybe it is related to grounding, or some sort of ground loop.

I have had the C41 and now the C2200 and they are both quite all the way up on the volume, except for the phono. The C41 was a little worse then my C2200.

I can hear a little white noise on the phono at a high volume setting. I did not try it with the phono tubes off though.
 
I'd suggest that, before you start swapping tubes, to strip the system back to its basic elements first. I'd start with only a TT, pre/power amps and speakers - nothing else. You want to find a set of elements where there's no problem.

Do you have any sort of cable/TV system hooked up through the MVP-861 by chance? These items count in your disconnection.

If you've got the problem even with the basic stuff, then, perhaps rolling some _known_ low-noise tubes into the pre _may_ help but isn't guaranteed.

The key is that you've got to have a basic system where you can control making the problem come and go at will.

Cheers,

David
 
Also make sure your trim adjustments are not turned up all of the way. This can produce some hiss if it is up too high. And yes, swap tubes around...it could be a noisy tube acting up.
 
entdoc said:
My c220 is only 5 months old and I have white noise between passages if the volume control is at or above 52 on the volume control. It is worst when I am listening to records. When I am not using phono I always turn the tubes off. Is this normal ? Thinking of trading in for a solid state pre-amp. Advice appreciated
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Hi Doc,

I had the same thing and changing tubes fixed it. I had some vintage 12ax7 on hand (Fisher-labeled Telefunkens I am told) which I used to replace the original tubes.

It's no big deal, and no big expense unless you want some NOS Telefunkens. Definitely not a good reason to go solid state, at least economically.

Tube failure and wear is part and parcel of tubed gear, but on pre-amps it's not as much an issue as with power amps. The tubes run cooler, last longer and are less expensive.

Send me a PM if you'd like help on how to change the tubes, but it's pretty easy.

Alberto

BTW, the Fisher/Telefunken tubes were quieter and did sound sweeter.
 
entdoc said:
My c220 is only 5 months old and I have white noise between passages if the volume control is at or above 52 on the volume control. It is worst when I am listening to records. When I am not using phono I always turn the tubes off. Is this normal ? Thinking of trading in for a solid state pre-amp. Advice appreciated
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I too had this white noise from day 1 on the phono section... swapped in some Slovtek tubes and the probelm went away. It is a shame that McIntosh could not of spent the couple of bucks for better tubes.
 
I had the same noise in the 220 phono...out went the Chinese tubes and in went the Sovtek LPS tubes....nice!
 
Where can I buy a new set of tubes that will sound better than the stock tubes ? When I say better, I mean make the pre-amp dead silent in quiet passages with the volume control at or above 50
 
Although it's really not Mac's fault,

their stock tubes suck! I think that will change in time as contemporary tube manufacturers slowly discover the secrets of the old masters of the 60's :smoke: It's not that our technology (fabrication techniques) is lacking. It's the metallurgical recipies that have to be worked out all over again, because the old guys never wrote them down before their death and transistors :no:

Thank heaven you're using the (excellent) phono section -- I mean you paid for it, and even though many "features" on Mac equipment are, in my opinion gratuitous, I think this item cost them more than a nickle to include, and should be used :thmbsp: For the phono section, I recommend either Sylvania, RCA or Raytheon 10% matched triple-mica blackplate NOS or ANOS 5751's (much quieter than any 12AX7 and plenty of gain for a MM phono pre :yes:)

For the linestage section, there are many competent 12AX7's (Telefunken is a perfect example) But very few great 12AX7's. One of the best is the RCA longplate blackplate. It's very strong yet smooth across the frequency range, and has almost none of that characteristic 12AX7 "fuzz" around the edges of the music :boring: Otherwise it's back to NOS 5751's.

Oh sure, perhaps you could get lucky and find a pair of Telefunken EC803S's with gold pins which you'll enjoy immensely, if the price doesn't put you in the ICU! ($1400/pair and up!)
 
entdoc said:
My c220 is only 5 months old and I have white noise between passages if the volume control is at or above 52 on the volume control...Thinking of trading in for a solid state pre-amp. Advice appreciated
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Just for my clarification...has the C-220 been disappointing in performance for the entire time you have owned it, or only recently when what is clearly a malfunction occurred? If the latter, then I agree that fixing the problem should return you to sonic bliss. If the former (meaning you have never liked it) then perhaps a change is what you need.

Ub
 
Put yourself in their shoes

Whatever1 said:
It is a shame that McIntosh could not of spent the couple of bucks for better tubes.
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It would cost way more than a "couple of bucks" for Mac to ship their tube gear with the finest tubes money can buy -- WHICH IS WHAT THEY USED TO DO! Back then, the finest tubes were only slightly more money than average tubes (and the average tubes back then were better than the best tubes made today IMO) So there was essentially no way for the customer to improve on the tubes that came with their new gear. They were already the best!

Today, for manufacturers that make more than a few units a year, the most imprtant issue is a guaranteed supply -- so McIntosh, Audio Research, BAT, etc. can't even consider using expensive NOS tubes; not even if you were willing to pay for them! Besides, you'd probably want a different flavor expensive tube anyway!

No, no. I think under the present circumstances, it's better for companies like Mac and ARC to save us the money on the front end, and then let us choose how we want to spend our "tube money." I admit, it's not the best of all possible worlds, but it'll have to do for now :yes:
 
At lower volume levels on the pre amp, say 35 and below, from 2 feet away from the speaker, no hiss or hum. Up close you can still hear white noise. At 40 you can't hear it from 5 feet away, above 50 it is very annoying between songs and quiet passages from 15 feet away. Above 60 you can hear a hum.
 
entdoc said:
At lower volume levels on the pre amp, say 35 and below, from 2 feet away from the speaker, no hiss or hum. Up close you can still hear white noise. At 40 you can't hear it from 5 feet away, above 50 it is very annoying between songs and quiet passages from 15 feet away. Above 60 you can hear a hum.
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Is this just thru the phono preamp stage? If a line input is selected, is it quiet(er) at the same settings? If one/both phono tubes are noisy, POSSIBLY swapping tube pairs from line<->phono will make things tolerable until a suitable pair can be found for the phono.

The line stage gain is 15dB, but phono is 55dB (total, I assume 40dB from the phono tube stage alone). Swapping in a quieter pair would help, assuming the line pair is still performing to spec..

If it's under warranty, definitely do the dealer thing! At least you would then have a good pair or set as a backup to your $$$ NOS whatever tubes ...
 
entdoc......buy yourself a pair of matched smooth plate Telefunken 12AX7 tubes. They don't have to be new, as long as they have been tested, matched, and have readings that indicate well above the good mark. I have purchased several pairs of Telefunken 12AX7 tubes from different sources, and have a pair in my C2200 in both the line stage and the phono stage. They sound beautiful.
 
entdoc said:
My c220 is only 5 months old and I have white noise between passages if the volume control is at or above 52 on the volume control. It is worst when I am listening to records. When I am not using phono I always turn the tubes off. Is this normal ? Thinking of trading in for a solid state pre-amp. Advice appreciated
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Sorry to hear about your dissappointment entdoc......I'll try my unit tonight after work and let you know what happens on my 220. I don't use the phono tubes so they are off permanently, using rca ic's and the trim adjustments are set to zero....if that helps.

Hopefully you'll be able to answer Rick58's question by the time I get home tonight.
 
I love my C-220, but I don't use the phono section at all.

First thought: is the noise equal in both channels? I know the 12AX7 is a dual triode tube, but would the noise be likely to appear equally in both channels?

Second thought: aren't all four tubes in there 12AX7s? If so, as a quickie experiment, couldn't you just switch the phono pre tubes with the high-level ones and check for a difference in noise?

All that said, I'd go with Ron-C's advice first and have a dealer bring it up to specs. Buying expensive NOS tubes makes no sense if you're putting them into a unit that has some other issue. Get it working properly first (at no cost!) then if you want to experiment with high-ticket tube rolling, have at it, knowing your baseline is correct.

My 2c, of course.
 
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