C33 Update Project 2013

[Rich Andrews]

I would be willing to bet some very serious money the one on the right is a counterfeit and when taken apart you will find another smaller cap that isn't the right value at all.

http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/index.html

"ALERTS......Customers Beware
Counterfeit Nichicon Products

To all Nichicon customers,

Recently it has been reported that counterfeit Nichicon capacitor products are turning up in the market...."

 

[Rich Andrews]

There are even fake resistors out there.

 

[kevzep]

I would be willing to bet some very serious money the one on the right is a counterfeit and when taken apart you will find another smaller cap that isn't the right value at all.

I would take that bet too.....well spotted Rich.......:thmbsp:

Where did you purchase the components from Gregory, just out of interest?

 

[Gregory]

I would take that bet too.....well spotted Rich.......:thmbsp: Where did you purchase the components from Gregory, just out of interest?

Yeah.. that makes a lot of sense. These caps came from Mouser in Texas. I figured on bumping the voltage up a notch and ordered the 50-volters after the 35's came in. The intent was to compare them next to each other.. and lookie-here!!

Have read the notices about counterfeit and all, and edited those images noticing what looks like a false bottom. Must admit.. the though of bogus parts from Mouser just didn't enter my mind until Rich mentioned it.


New Process Awareness alert: INCOMING INSPECTION ! !


-Gregory


p.s. they picked the wrong guy (with the camera-microscope) to send bogus parts to!! if that's the case.

 

[Rich Andrews]

I would take the one cap apart with photos, send the photos to Mouser and to Nichicon and ask them to comment on it.

What are the date codes on the two caps?

 

[Gregory]

There are even fake resistors out there.

Sounds like with every order, you'd need to buy an extra component and dissect it. :sigh:


-Gregory

 

[chuckworkb]

Gregory,

Looking at your work and where you do you work on this gear, I was thinking I hope he has a chair or stool to sit on while he does this or else his back must be killing him.

Excellent job cleaning up all that flux.
It's amazing how good it looks when you're done.

 

[Rich Andrews]

Sounds like with every order, you'd need to buy an extra component and dissect it. :sigh:


-Gregory

I don't think that is necessary. Just have to be careful where you buy parts.

I would have thought that Mouser would be reliable. I buy my caps from Digikey. So far so good.

 

[Gregory]

I don't think that is necessary. Just have to be careful where you buy parts. I would have thought that Mouser would be reliable. I buy my caps from Digikey. So far so good.

Well.. I wasn't all together serious about that. Lol


Bench progress

Have made progress this morning installing some FG (Fine Gold) caps.




Problem re-flowing ground screw

The input boards are complete..... except for the issue of the Input Ground screw. Probably should have left it be. The more I tried to flow solder, the worse it would glob-up. It seemed to be hot enough but the solder wasn't attracted or sticking to the WASHER especially. Must need some liquid flux?



It tested 000.0 ohms multiple times with a DMM through various paths, but I'm not sure if it's done right.


-Greg

 

[Gregory]

I would take the one cap apart with photos, send the photos to Mouser and to Nichicon and ask them to comment on it.

What are the date codes on the two caps?

Before we jump to conclusions, have a look at how the original's are constructed. I just pulled them out in the last 20 mins.




I think we'll be ok, but am very worried about the pads lifting from the board on those BIG caps. It may come down to how thick the leads are.. as to which ones go back in.


Pad lifted

A little while ago I inserted a long tapered "pick tool" in one of the smaller desoldered vias (from the copper side) which would tend to open it up and when extracting it, the foil stuck and... well it came loose. DAMN!

Here's the pad that got lifted.. with the new VZ cap soldered in place. That machine nut on the left is really ugly too!!




Must proceed conservatively.


-Greg

 

[kenkirk]

Nice thread!

I am going to start the recap of my MAC4300v after I finish up my Yamaha CR2020.

But the one tool that really makes these jobs so much faster, neater and easier is the Hakko 808. I got mine on Ebay for around 180.00 bucks. Worth every cent! Just a suggestion. But it will suck off the solder from those nuts, pads, etc and leave it nice and clean and easy to resolder. See link.

Ken

http://www.hakkousa.com/detail.asp?CID=50&PID=838&Page=1

 

[clinic-audio]

Hi Greg

if you want to do a perfect job desolder everything ( screw and washer ) and use strong abrasive paper and everything will look like new , then resolder and you will see that it will be nicer than original ....:thmbsp:

 

[Gregory]

Recapping continued today but it was slow going. A lot of head-scratching about what cap to use, and what size leads, etc.


Top Panel and Input boards

A photo of two YELLOW FG (Nich Fine Gold) caps installed in each of three PCBs below. These boards are DONE with the exception of a ground screw.


Two new Nich Fine Gold caps in each of the three PCBs above.


Power Supply section

Turns out there were FG caps ordered over a week ago, and then I ordered general purpose VZ caps, probably to compare one against the other during installation. With input from PMs and emails earlier, I decided to go mostly with Find Gold caps in the power supply.

Two FGs in the upper left, and two big 50 Volt VZs in the center are seen below. These are the larger of the two 4700uF caps. They fit the best based on lead spacing and diameter.. almost a direct drop-in. Not bad!! I seriously doubt Mouser would supply bogus parts.


The larger of the 4700uF caps (50V) were installed due to lead spacing and diameter.


Reverse view

There are two more FGs behind the big 4700's, and a 470uF VZ cap to the extreme left. I tried to install a FG there, but it was too damn big for the pads and holes, etc. No wire gauge drill bits could be found to open up holes today. Will have to order more.




What next

Another EIGHT interstage NPs will be installed tomorrow. After that, the amp will be re-assembled and tested.

The front panel will have to come off before long.


-Greg

 

[kevzep]

You are doing a wonderful job there Gregory, I think you are making good decisions, getting the best out of what you have to work with...:thmbsp:

 

[mmc350]

Gregory;

Just saw this thread about 1/2 hour ago. Excellent photos. I also like your use of towels to keep scratches at bay. I do the same. Nice equipment.

Reason for my post is this . . .

I don't think the screws you're removing/re-installing are #1 Phillips. I believe they are a #2. The head of the screw is small, but the width of the slots is quite large in relation to it. Easy to think it would be a #1, but I'll bet it's not.

Did you try a size 2 before settling on size 1? Using a size too small will create a nightmare scenario. You seem to be having a significant amount of trouble - with entirely too many screws - for the condition your equipment is in.

I've worked on mac (as well as other stuff) 35+ years old and never suffered nearly the screw problems you seem to be having... and I'd guess 95% or more of the time the mac screws were in fact #2's - and NOT that brutally tight. VERY small screws, but #2 nonetheless.

Lowe's sells Kobalt tools here in NJ, and I've found their Phillips screwdrivers with the hex just below the handle (as someone stated earlier) to be excellent. 4" length seems to be just right for most purposes. They'll take out a screw as well - or better - than a Snap-on product, at a MUCH better price.

If you've already eliminated #2 as being too big and you're sure #1 is what you need, then I apologize for questioning you. But I know what a pain in the ass a bunged-up screw head can be. . . and it seems you've had more than your "fair share" of them. (wait a minute. . . for some strange reason, that "fair share" phrase sounds very familiar... now where the hell have I heard that before?)

Keep up the good work. You're OCD - and I say that as a compliment. So am I!

Oh, BTW. . . some rosin-based flux paste (as you had pondered earlier) IS a good idea. It does wonders - both on new work and touch-ups. You should keep some on hand. I prefer the paste though, not the liquid. Tried both, and that's just my preference.

Jim

 

[Rich Andrews]

Lifted pads, cracked traces and more are all part and parcel of the game. I can't count how many traces, lifted and lost pads, cracks, etc., I have repaired over the years. The worst is repairing traces that go between the pins of an IC chip.

There are a variety of ways to repair PC boards but one that usually works best involves using some wire wrap wire and removing the resist. Wire wrap wire is some great stuff for PC board repairs.

I remember a couple of double sided PC boards that I repaired. I had to remove most of the components, glue the board together, repair the obvious trace breaks, check continuity of all the traces in the area, repopulate and then test. It all worked out in the end but it took a few hours.

The one board type that always gives me the willies are multilayer boards. It is possible that pulling the plated through hole will destroy the board. This is a rare situation with analog signals but with high speed processors, the added length of wire needed to repair a buried trace can result in a delayed signal that would cause the processor to just not work anymore. Then there is the capacitance and inductance of the wire too. It gets ugly.

 

[Rich Andrews]

I don't think the screws you're removing/re-installing are #1 Phillips. I believe they are a #2. The head of the screw is small, but the width of the slots is quite large in relation to it. Easy to think it would be a #1, but I'll bet it's not.

+1 - Agreed

 

[Gregory]

I don't think the screws you're removing/re-installing are #1 Phillips. I believe they are a #2. The head of the screw is small, but the width of the slots is quite large in relation to it. Easy to think it would be a #1, but I'll bet it's not.

Did you try a size 2 before settling on size 1? Using a size too small will create a nightmare scenario. You seem to be having a significant amount of trouble - with entirely too many screws - for the condition your equipment is in.

I've worked on mac 35+ years old and never suffered nearly the screw problems you seem to be having... and I'd guess 95% or more of the time the mac screws were in fact #2's - and NOT that brutally tight. VERY small screws, but #2 nonetheless.

If you've already eliminated #2 as being too big and you're sure #1 is what you need, then I apologize for questioning you. But I know what a pain in the ass a bunged-up screw head can be. . . and it seems you've had more than your "fair share" of them.

Keep up the good work. You're OCD - and I say that as a compliment. So am I!

Oh, BTW. . . some rosin-based flux paste (as you had pondered earlier) IS a good idea. It does wonders - both on new work and touch-ups. You should keep some on hand. I prefer the paste though, not the liquid. Tried both, and that's just my preference.

A few days ago I reported the screw situation was sorted out. Fastener problems started with the MR 80 PCB screws recently which were 4-40. They were soft metal and #1 Phillips I believe. I bought replacement screws at the hardware store. The Top PCB in the C33 has 4-40 screws as well, and they were VERY TIGHT. These two issues got me into a fluster and mindset, not wanting to damage anything. It was an early onset senior moment type occurrence. :yes:

I now realize and agree the majority of chassis screws are 6-23 with #2 Phillips heads. And yeah, that screw soldering fiasco yesterday got me in a fluster too, but things went better after that. I was recapping the C33 Main PCB in place, being extremely careful and deliberate.. not to knock it over or "screw up" anything else. The soldered #6 machine screw still has a solder bridge (or strip) across the washer and onto the head... just not all around the circumference. I'll get to soldering it up tight, but would like to test the preamp soon.

And yes.. I worked in Division 9 of Sears (Craftsman Tools department) in college. :thmbsp:


-Gregory

 

[Gregory]

Lifted pads, cracked traces and more are all part and parcel of the game. I can't count how many traces, lifted and lost pads, cracks, etc., I have repaired over the years. The worst is repairing traces that go between the pins of an IC chip.

All good advice and guidance. It was stupid to just PULL that pick tool out of the hole w/o looking at it, or even rotating the point. Must be more deliberate and careful than that! More flustering was not being able to find my wire-gauge drill bits.. the ones to hand-chuck and "gently" open up PCB holes. Thinking back now.. they might have been borrowed from the lab at work.

This is the Vargus "hand chuck" used to open-up hole.




Drill bits on hand

Before starting an important update like your beloved C33, one should be "component lead diameter aware" and have the necessary drill bits to fix or make clearance holes for those leads. This I did not have in place, and wasted time looking around for drills.


Order here: it's quick and easy to order individual drill bits from McMaster: http://www.mcmaster.com/#drill-bits

Or materials.. or boxes of screws even. You will find out how excellent McMaster's service is. :yes:


-Greg

 

[Gregory]

making.. decisions, getting the best out of... it

Lead diameter confusion

This is the cap I'd like to replace C1313 with, a 35V FG for the 470uF 25V spec.

The hole is 0.6 mm and must be opened-up to 0.8 mm.


The cap leads are measured and marked on the package, however 0.031" is the HOLE Dia. The lead is 0.028".


FG cap table

Looking at the data sheet for FG series, I see the outline drawing with table for lead spacing and diameter.

The leads for these are either 0.6mm (.024") or 0.8mm (.031") and you'd need.. #72-71 and #66-65 drill bits?




So the `diameter´ spec is apparently for the hole. The actual lead diameters for .6 and .8 mm are .020" and .028".


New Lead Awareness Initiative.


-Greg