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C47 or C34V, with MC452?

C

Couldbfishin

Couldbfishin
I recently purchased a MC452 amp. I planned to use a C34V preamp with it, which I also bought recently. I think the C34V needs a recap, which is not terribly expensive by Audio Classics.

But, before I do that, I wanted to consider a newer model preamp and I am doing research on the C47 right now.

I would like to hear opinions, ideally from someone who has the C47 and has had older preamps like the C33 or C34 in the past. I would also like to hear from someone who has both the MC452 and C47. How do they sound together?

Let me add, I also have the C20 and two MC40 mono-blocks, so when I want to listen to vintage tube gear I have it, although with less wattage and smaller speakers.

So I don't mean for this thread to be a debate over vintage versus modern, but about the C34 (like a C33) versus the C47, with the MC452 amp.

Speakers are JBL L150 floor standing 3-ways, 12" active and passive woofers, 8 ohm, and they handle all that I have fed them through the MC452 w/o distress or complaint. I think they will sound good with either preamp.

Thanks
 
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4-2-7 said:
I know what @kevzep is going to say, but I'll let him do it...:D

If it where me looking for a preamp, I'd get the C100 or C200 but that's me, and a bunch of other members. ;)
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Hmmmmmmmm........lets see....:idea:

I'm going to say, run with the C34V for a while and look to upgrade later, enjoy what you've got...:rockon: and make the most of it......then upgrade to something like a modern C47/52 something like that......
I know Dan will hoot on about the C100, but they are over 20 years old......technology has moved on.....:rflmao:

but seriously, any modern Mc pre-amp will be a nice improvement, I would recommend the C100 or 200 but I've never heard one, they look good on paper and some of the guys here love them, so there is that option to consider too....
 
kevzep said:
I'm going to say, run with the C34V for a while and look to upgrade later, enjoy what you've got...:rockon: and make the most of it......then upgrade to something like a modern C47/52 something like that......
Click to expand...

I notice you have a C48 and the MC452, so I am curious as to why you would suggest my keeping the C34V and using it for a while. I understand the C47 and C48 are similar.

Is there something about either the C47 or the C34V that I should know?

I understand the difference feature wise I think. The C34 has the 5 band equalizer, and the C47 has all the connections, MC and MM phono inputs, DAC capabilities, a strong headphone amp, a remote control, etc. I haven't heard either of them in their prime, so I don't know the difference in the musical strengths of each. And, I am not strong in the balanced and unbalanced features. Not sure what it means.

I appreciate your advice, I would like to hear the reasoning behind it though.

Thanks.
 
Couldbfishin said:
I notice you have a C48 and the MC452, so I am curious as to why you would suggest my keeping the C34V and using it for a while. I understand the C47 and C48 are similar.

Is there something about either the C47 or the C34V that I should know?

I understand the difference feature wise I think. The C34 has the 5 band equalizer, and the C47 has all the connections, MC and MM phono inputs, DAC capabilities, a strong headphone amp, a remote control, etc. I haven't heard either of them in their prime, so I don't know the difference in the musical strengths of each. And, I am not strong in the balanced and unbalanced features. Not sure what it means.

I appreciate your advice, I would like to hear the reasoning behind it though.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
When I first got my MC452, I had a C40, and although I wanted to upgrade the pre-amp at the same time, I couldn't afford it so I used the C40 for a while and I got used to the way the system sounded with the C40.....
I thought about it for a long time, and although I wanted to get a C50, it was outside my price range, so I took the C48, and when I connected the C48 up I really got to appreciate how good the MC452 is.

My reasoning is simply because there are a lot of ways you can go, so might as well keep the C34V whilst you decide what you want to do.
The C48 had the 5 band equaliser so its a little more featured than the C47.
If I was doing it all again with whats available now, I would probably go for the C52 because it has the Equaliser on it, not that I use it that much at all, but when I do use it, I am glad I have it.
 
I am using the C47 with a MC452. It's very difficult for me to find any faults with this combo. Some look at the 47 as a lesser model than the 52, which it is in the product line, but from everything I've read and heard they are the same with the exception of an equalizer. The 47 has tone controls in the menu so you can adjust the basics, but no equalizer. Everything else AFAIK is identical. Since I almost never bother with adjusting EQ, it seemed silly to spend a couple more grand for the luxury. But that's just me.
The 47 is impressive in both sound and features. I use the optic cables for streaming and for the smart TV. It has adjustable load settings for MM and MC phono, as well as all the usual inputs. It also has an output that allows CD recording at full volume, called a fixed output. Man it's a sweet piece to me but maybe I'm easily impressed.
 
grillebilly said:
I am using the C47 with a MC452. It's very difficult for me to find any faults with this combo. Some look at the 47 as a lesser model than the 52, which it is in the product line, but from everything I've read and heard they are the same with the exception of an equalizer. The 47 has tone controls in the menu so you can adjust the basics, but no equalizer. Everything else AFAIK is identical. Since I almost never bother with adjusting EQ, it seemed silly to spend a couple more grand for the luxury. But that's just me.
The 47 is impressive in both sound and features. I use the optic cables for streaming and for the smart TV. It has adjustable load settings for MM and MC phono, as well as all the usual inputs. It also has an output that allows CD recording at full volume, called a fixed output. Man it's a sweet piece to me but maybe I'm easily impressed.
Click to expand...
I'm only guessing and this is the technician in me, but I would be surprised if there was actually any difference between the C47 and C52 apart from the extra inputs, meters, appointments and the lovely blue meters....I would put money on the actual pre-amplification part being the same....
I believe this to be the same for the C48/50 too.....
 
kevzep said:
lovely blue meters
Click to expand...

Yeah, those meters are neat but the novelty wore off on me after about 6 months. On the 452, I turn the lights off, as they became hypnotic and turned my focus off the music. Sure, I'm glad they are there, they look wicked with the room dark. It's also nice to know how hard you are pushing the amp. The speakers I'm using are pretty efficient so 5 watts is loud, 10 I can't hear the wife yelling at me, and 50 you best not be in the same room. :)
 
This exchange is helping me. Thanks. As for the blue meters, they do look pretty, but my equipment is set up in my study and I listen to the speakers in the living room. So, I don't get to watch them while listening to music. It just worked out that way. There is more room on the bookshelves in the study, and I didn't have to have another electrical outlet installed. And, when we have someone we don't know well come inside the house, I can shut the doors to the study so the stereo equipment is out of sight.

If I have time tomorrow, I am going to hook the C34V back up and listen to it with the MC452 for a while. When I first did so, I had a speaker selector box set up and a second pair of speakers. After hearing from the AK family that it was not the proper thing to do, I removed the speaker selector box, the second pair of speakers, re-positioned the L150s and upgraded the speaker wire. It was a big improvement. So, I don't know how much of the issue was with the C34V or with the other factors.

Right now I am using an Adcom GTP-500 pre-amp. I don't think it is in the same class as McIntosh pre-amps. I use it to test tube amps that I work on, so I am familiar with it and knew it was working when I wanted to try something else to test the C34V.

So, now i am wondering how much better the MC452 will sound when the C34 is working properly, or I buy a C47. I am considering the C47 because AC quoted a pretty tempting price on one, and I like what I read about it. So, do I put more money into the C34 or sell it and buy the C47. That is my dilemma.

Thanks guys for helping me think through these options.

Couldbfishin
Houston, TX
 
Have you tried using the CR-7 yet as the preamp?

You do not mention playing records so I should point out that it was designed specifcally by Mac engineering to set up a system just like you have.

What I would have done back in the mid80 s with a client wanting to do what you wish to do......

CR7 in office with IR sensor in LR. CD and Tuner fixed out plugged into CR7. Record out of C34 into CR7. Output to main amp.

Back then I would have installed a quality set of small bookshelf speakers, most likey ADS 300 or 400s in office run off the C34 internal monitor amp. Today I would add a powered subwoofer. This allows two music sources to be played at the same time in the different rooms.

If the C34 has set idle for a while I would thourghly clean the loudness and balance pots with F5 Faderlube and the processor loop RCA jacks make/ break contacts with D5.

These preamps hate to not be used. A proper bench test is always a good idea.
 
Thanks c_dk. I have not used the CR7 at all. I need to find and print a set of directions for it. I will try what you suggest to see what the CR7 and C34 are capable of doing. I am not sure the HR7 handheld remote that comes with the CR7 is working. But, I will try that also.
 
kevzep said:
I'm only guessing and this is the technician in me, but I would be surprised if there was actually any difference between the C47 and C52 apart from the extra inputs, meters, appointments and the lovely blue meters....I would put money on the actual pre-amplification part being the same....
I believe this to be the same for the C48/50 too.....
Click to expand...
Yeah but the meters are so important you said it twice! I just showed my wife a C22 and a c2300 to see which one she liked looks-wise and was surprised when she chose the 2300 because of the meters.
 
I have a C50 with mine, I Like meters and Eq's almost got a c2300 but didn't wanna deal with tubes. Get at least a c47 if not c50 or C52. with the 452 you will notice a difference.
 
It all depends on the flexibility you want versus the sonic signature. The 47 should sound better in the phono section . But the 34 has those fabulous graphic EQ, the mode selector, record selector, processor circuits, variable loudness, range expander contractor, etc etc. Now the 34 no slouch, it it just had a MC input. when I had mine last repaired at Audio Classics. The distortion was below .005 % in both the phono and line inputs and the signal to noise was fantastic. The little Power amp was great, too. So I wouldn't hesitate to have a C-34. Now if you are strictly digital a C-47 might be a better choice. But once having the graphic controls I would never go back to just plain old treble and bass. A C-34 would allow you to add a more sophisticated graphic EQ if you wanted, noise reduction, external DBX processing, etc etc, that a C-47 won't. I would take the 34V, thats why I have one, in addition I need the 16" wide chassis. I added a MP100 for MC cartridges, but you really don't need to, just pick a high output MC from Ortofon or Dynavector. Now if you are just into play back then a C-47 will be more viable. But if you are into analog, then you need the C-34. Now if you are one of these guys that don't need tone controls, then get a version of a C-500 or C-200.
 
Thanks for all the responses so far. I hooked up the C34 this evening to two Mac C40 mono-blocks and played a few CDs. I used KLH models 5 and 20 speakers. I was unimpressed, or should I say disappointed. Tomorrow I will try it with the MC452 and JBL 150s to see if it sounds any better. I think the C34 needs recapping. AC quoted a fair price for replacing caps and restoring it to original specs. AC also said they would repair the CR-7 and hand held remote for only a little more. i was told I cannot mention prices in this forum, so I won't do it.

Once it is serviced, I will know what a C34 preamp is capable of. If I do decide to sell it later, I can do so knowing it is in good working order.

I do listen to records. I have two Denon 45Fs, both have been rebuilt and are in beautiful condition. Both have Denon cartridges, one has a MM cartridge and the other a MC cartridge. I use a Lounge Copla and phono signal booster. The C47 would be convenient for running both TTs on the same preamp. But already having the MC phono preamp will allow me to use either TT with the C34.

I also have a couple of reel to reel decks, and two cassette decks that I like to record LPs with. Both RTRs and the Nakamichi cassette deck, have been professionally restored. I bought 10-12 slightly used 10" reels of Maxell UD tape, and a couple of reels of new tape. I was lucky that the used tape I bought was in good condition. Most of it was recorded many years ago with poor quality equipment and at 3 3/4 IPS speed. I bulk erased the recordings and tested the used tape and it sounds great. I had some recordings I made on Scotch tape in the 70's that I would have loved to play now, but the tape was questionable and I didn't want to risk getting a sticky mess on my restored decks. I spent about an hour pulling tape off of 10" metal reels by hand, before I pulled out a battery powered fishing line stripper. The kind that offshore fishermen use to strip heavy mono line off of big reels. It stripped the old tape off the metal reels in just a few minutes. It is worth buying a line stripper if you have several reels of tape to remove.

On the other hand, I was planning to start downloading digital music from the net and save it onto tape. The C47 would make that convenient.

Couldbfishin in Houston
 
Due to personal budgetary constraints, I run a older C-35 preamp for my Mc452, and It is a wonderful combination!
I bought yet another at a bargain price, complete with the cabinet.
If I had dough to burn, I'd probably buy a C-50, but there is really no need...
 
The C34 and CR-7 are boxed and I am about to take them to be shipped to AC for repair/restoration. They said it should be a 2-3 week turnaround. So, I will be anxiously awaiting their return and look forward to hearing the C34 and MC452 in good condition. I am having the CR-7 repaired so I will have a remote control to use with the C34.

In the meantime, I may hook up my C20 tube preamp to see how it sounds with the MC452. Do you think it would sound any better/worse than the Adcom GP500 preamp I am using now? The C20 was built in the late 50s, so it is truly vintage. Of course I was born before that, so that makes me vintage also.

I will let everyone know how this all turns out.

Thanks again.
Couldbfishin
 
Did you ever hook up the CR7 directly to the MC452? Or try the C34 with the amp/ speakers set up better?

I have recapped a number of C33s and C34s used to keep a C33 around as a loaner so owners could do a comparison.

You have never put into words what you found so disappointing about the C34 so I have to guess you have a major circuit issue or are looking for something it might not be able to deliver.

I do not think a 5 hour recap will solve your problem but it would not be the first time I was wrong.
 
c_dk said:
Did you ever hook up the CR7 directly to the MC452? Or try the C34 with the amp/ speakers set up better?

I have recapped a number of C33s and C34s used to keep a C33 around as a loaner so owners could do a comparison.

You have never put into words what you found so disappointing about the C34 so I have to guess you have a major circuit issue or are looking for something it might not be able to deliver.

I do not think a 5 hour recap will solve your problem but it would not be the first time I was wrong.
Click to expand...

Hello c_dk,

No, I didn't make the time to wire the CR-7 to the MC452 or to re-try the C34 with the MC452 after removing the speaker selector and the second pair of speakers. I did try the C34 with a pair of MC40 mono-blocks and some KLH 5 and 17 pairs of speakers. The sound was about the same as when I first hooked it up to the MC452, dull, with minimum range, kind of fuzzy, not clear or sharp. Both channels made sound, but it was equally disappointing. And, I am a guy who is accustomed to listening to Marantz receivers. It did not compare favorably to the Marantz receivers. I did expect it to sound better.

Again, when I took the C34 out of the system and replaced it with an Adcom GP-500 preamp/tuner, it sounded much better. So, based on this, I am certain there is something wrong with the C34. Since it is 30 years old, I assumed it needed and to be tested by an experienced technician with the right tools, and probably requires some caps to be replaced. Since then I have learned there are about 90 caps in a C34, and it is not practical to replace all of them. I called AC and was told they would be able to return it to original specs. I assume they work on McIntosh gear every day. I have never heard a disparaging word about them, only compliments, and their price sounded good, so it is on the way there now. Should arrive by Tuesday of next week.

If they do as they say, and return it to the original factory specifications, I don't see how I could be disappointed in their work, or with the sound.

As for the CR-7, I thought about using it as a second pre-amp, but decided I would prefer to use it as an external remote control for the C34. With basic on/off and volume control. I also asked AC to supply an original copy of the Operators Instructions for the CR-7, and to make sure the CR-7 and its handheld remote control did work with the C34.

Since there are no parts available for the MCD 7000 CD deck, and it is working except for occasionally getting stuck on a line of music and not recovering without my forwarding to the next song, I decided not to put any money into it, except to buy a used remote control. I didn't bother sending the MCD 7000 deck itself to AC, but asked that they quote a price on a working hand held remote control. I am hoping that will resolve the remote control issue. And, if it sticks on a line of music, I won't have to get up to walk to the CD deck and forward it, I can use the remote control.

So, that is my strategy. I feel comfortable with it, and with sending the gear to AC. They promised a 3 week turnaround, which I thought was very reasonable.

Of course, the proof will be in the sound and function once it returns.

I will keep you posted.

Thanks for your advice and for educating me.

Couldbfishin
Houston, TX
 
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