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can turntables really sound that good???

I bet that the success of the AR demonstration had a lot to do with people's general lack of experience with ANY kind of Hi Fi, much less AR's speakers. Their minds very well might not have thought Hi FI capable of anything close to reality, so their minds filled in the blanks and assumed it was real. I bet if you did the same demonstration today, with the public being generally more aware of what stereo can do, that the demonstration would not be nearly as successful.

Just a thought, I really have no idea. But I generally don't think AR-3as sound all that much like a real life orchestra in that close of a proximity. Maybe back farther in a hall but not when you are right up on one.

It's like Orwell's 'war of the worlds". Play that today, and nobody would be fooled. But given the context of its original broadcast, and the lack of knowledge of what was really out there...and lots of people's minds filled in the blanks.
 
I've read about that AR "trick" before, but thinking about it now... how many AR-3s fed by how many watts did they need to simply match the SPL of a live orchestra on stage in a big room? I've always had a lot of respect for the original Acoustic Research company, always thought they were a real no-nonsense outfit, but this has got me wondering.
 
I bet that the success of the AR demonstration had a lot to do with people's general lack of experience with ANY kind of Hi Fi, much less AR's speakers. Their minds very well might not have thought Hi FI capable of anything close to reality, so their minds filled in the blanks and assumed it was real. I bet if you did the same demonstration today, with the public being generally more aware of what stereo can do, that the demonstration would not be nearly as successful.

Just a thought, I really have no idea. But I generally don't think AR-3as sound all that much like a real life orchestra in that close of a proximity. Maybe back farther in a hall but not when you are right up on one.

It's like Orwell's 'war of the worlds". Play that today, and nobody would be fooled. But given the context of its original broadcast, and the lack of knowledge of what was really out there...and lots of people's minds filled in the blanks.

Just as an aside, not too long ago I played the Orson Wells' "War of the Worlds" broadcast for my wife and son on a long drive. I had to periodically stop the recording and point out how compressed the time span was in order for it not to freak them both out. It's still a very powerful production.

Given the disconnect between the quality of the equipment available today (the good stuff) and the poor quality of the recordings that are being produced, I would argue that a very large percentage of people today would be fooled by a very high quality studio recording played through an very accurate system: provided the recording used the full bandwidth and dynamic range capability of the both the recording system and the playback system. Being used to the over compressed nature of modern releases, one could easily be fooled by a recording that uses such tools just barely enough to make the recording possible.

Just my $.02 worth.

Shelly_D
 
Given the disconnect between the quality of the equipment available today (the good stuff) and the poor quality of the recordings that are being produced, I would argue that a very large percentage of people today would be fooled by a very high quality studio recording played through an very accurate system: provided the recording used the full bandwidth and dynamic range capability of the both the recording system and the playback system. Being used to the over compressed nature of modern releases, one could easily be fooled by a recording that uses such tools just barely enough to make the recording possible.

Just my $.02 worth.

Shelly_D

You're absolutely right, and I'm giving today's market too much credit. Having made some home recordings with no compression (beyond that native to the medium I was using) and very simple stereo mic technique, it is pretty interesting how much more 'real' some very simple homemade stuff sounds than some or most studio work. But I guess that is because they aren't really trying to sound real, as they are trying to sound 'good', in light of what good is to most people.

I still think the AR test was largely successful, though, based on people's perception of what was possible (and could maybe be replicated today because of the reasons you laid out).

So another metaphor...when moving pictures were first shown to audiences, I remember hearing that a particularly disturbing movie was that of a steam locomotive coming right at the camera. It would freak the audiences out so much that some of them fainted. Obviously to us, today, it doesn't have that affect. But to them, the obviously black and white and 2 dimensional 'fake' of the moving picture seemed real enough to affect them in a very real, physical way. The mind can really play tricks and those tricks seem to have a lot to do with what it knows to be possible.
 
Hi guys, well i just took a picture of my stereo layout...to give you a better idea of what i'm talking about, and i took it to the left of this computer, so the tweeter level is about at ear level...I'm sitting about 6-8 feet away.

You really shouldn’t have the speakers sitting right next to the turntable, and on the same shelf – that will almost certainly cause feedback to lower the sound quality, by causing the vibrations from the speakers to be directly coupled into the turntable. Either move the speakers, or the turntable, for the best sound.

Other than that, the speakers are at a good height, although maybe too close together for maximum stereo effect - the rule of thumb is they should be about the same distance apart as they are from you. B&W speakers normally sound excellent - I have a set myself that I bought more than 25 years ago which still sound good, although they are no longer my main speakers.
 
A lot of good points have been made in this thread.

One thing hasn't been mentioned, though, which is VERY important: the gear itself. MOST audio gear will NEVER be able to better than roughly approximate something that our brains can re-interpret as "live-like" sound.

There are a few systems out there that CAN sound live. Imagine you take all the electronic set-up of a rock band on stage, and simply replace the inputs from microphones and pick-ups with excellent reel-tape studio recordings made from the performers and their instruments. Play those back through the regular amps and speakers the band uses, in the concert venue. The result will be as if the band itself were playing! Why? Because when you listen to that rock band live, about 99 percent of what you are hearing is the relatively tiny sounds picked up by those mikes and pick-ups (except for the percussion). Just imagine the electricity supply was cut off mid-performance... how much sound would the literally "unplugged" band have (using their electric guitars, not switching to acoustic ones)? You'd hear percussion, a relatively weak singer, and precious little else at a normal listening distance. The rest is the amplification: get an accurate recording, and a similar system will (re-)create a "live" sounding performance.

How about an orchestra, whose sound comes from instruments that produce much greater volume without amplification? It's still possible... but the only system I've ever heard in my life that could do it was a no-expense-spared system built around Infinity IRS-V speakers. Look at how many drivers they have (102, IIRC), and they were being powered by several thousand watts, in a room that, while large for any typical home standards, was much smaller than a concert venue, and the whole set-up was professionally well-tweaked for acoustics, the speaker placement and system set-up being handled by world-class experts flown in for the job.

Every other system I've ever heard --including many ultra-expensive and very fine systems right up to last year's best offerings at the hi-fi show-- couldn't capture truly "live" sound (AR 3as certainly couldn't! :no:).

BUT some came much closer than others.

I'm sorry to say this to the OP, but I don't think it is possible to get truly "life like" sound from that gear. A G-2000 is the bottom end of the "G" range, and while sounding sweet enough, won't produce "live" SPLs for an entire group. Those bookshelf speakers are probably the weakest/limiting link in the system, though --and the TT and cart have their limitations. Under the best conditions, they'll still not reproduce "live" sound 100 percent.

That said, you can probably get MUCH closer and better sound than you suspect, with enough tweaking. It's worth putting in some effort, to get the most you can from that gear. When played at its best, it should still sound pretty darned good! :music: :yes:

Here are some things to work on. I won't go into much detail, because it is all out there already, in the archives (and some just above, in this thread). Focus on each of these things in turn, and you'll hear your system improve:

1. Make sure your gear is operating correctly, as designed. If that G-2000 is still running with the original electrolytic capacitors in it, and perhaps other components that may have drifted off-spec over the years, the sound will be at least somewhat degraded. In this case, get it re-capped. Are you sure your TT/tonearm/cart system is set up properly? Did you use a spirit level, protractor and set-up records, etc... to get that stylus tracking as perfectly as possible in those grooves?

2. Try improving the gear itself. This doesn't necessarily have to mean costly upgrading. Sometimes adding some extra acoustic stuffing or bracing in a speaker can improve the sound, or dampening the plinth of a TT, or tightening down (or isolating with nylon washers) a vibrating transformer, etc... can make a positive difference.

3. Consider your support surfaces. Are your speakers and TT on the same surface? (Hint: I think they are, from the pics.) That greatly increases the chances of destructive feedback of vibration between them. Get those speakers isolated on their own stands (blu-tack them to heavy, inert stands spiked at the bottom, for a starting point). Isolate the turntable well. (What kind of floor do you have? If it is concrete slab, you probably won't have much problem with floor vibrations from footfalls, etc... but if the floor is suspended wood construction, then you'll have to deal with this.) ISOLATE each thing that vibrates (or is sensitive to vibration) physically from each other, for a quieter and more accurate system.

4. Improve your electrical input. The sound you hear is actually superimposed (slight simplification, but it works) on the power sine wave that your system draws from the power grid. That wave is made "dirty" by the other appliances and such operating from it. Get a separate power line for your gear if you can, or at least remove "noisy" things like refrigerators, fans, air-conditioners, etc... from the circuit you use for your audio gear. It's a good idea to put some form of noise isolation, such as an extreme isolation transformer or stabilized power supply (or if you can afford it, a power regenerator) before your gear. Secondhand, some of these things are not expensive, and they will upgrade your whole system. I found a bunch of medical-grade toroidal isolation transformers at a scrap-metal place that were in like-new condition, and run all my noisy appliances like my computer and fridge off of them. That "tweak" to the rest of the household made my audio system sound better. Modern dimmer devices and ceiling-fan controllers "chop up" the wave-form: I replaced mine with variacs and my radio reception went from almost un-listenably noisy to very clean and clear. Do whatever you have to, to feed your gear a clean electrical wave.

5. Look carefully at speaker placement; figure out where the ideal spots in your room are likely to be (for both speakers and listener), put things as close to those locations as circumstances allow, and then experiment with moving things little-by-little until you find the optimal placement.

6. Try some room tweaks: things like bass traps in corners, refraction panels (or carpets or ceiling panels) at reflection points can make a difference. Making a room more or less "live" through addition or removal of things like drapes (just opening or closing them), upholstered furniture, etc... can make a big difference.

7. Outside/background noises can have a serious impact on our listening experience, that we often aren't consciously aware of, especially if you live in a busy/crowded city or apartment block where neighbors' noise can be faintly heard. I notice in the wee hours of the morning, around 3:00 or 4:00 a.m., I can hear the tiny mechanisms in our battery-powered clocks running, from across the room, or even in the next room. During the day, I cannot hear those sounds, even though the room feels "quiet" to me. Why? because of the low-level sounds creeping in from the outside world during the day, because I live in the middle of a congested, noisy city. Anything you can do to lower background noise will help. I added dampening and insulation to the inside of the case of my living room dehumidifier, smoothed over some inside areas (for less turbulent air-flow) and torqued down the case over thin nylon washers (to reduce case resonance), and quietened it considerably. I'll turn it off during serious listening sessions anyway, but otherwise when it runs during "background listening" or listening in a nearby room, it's better to have it quieter. Similarly, keep your refrigerator coils clean and get that --and your washing machine, dishwasher, dryer, etc... up on vibration-isolation pads, perhaps with dampened cases, too. ANYTHING you can do to lower the background noise level will improve your sound quality.

8. Get those records of yours CLEAN. Buy or make an RCM (record cleaning machine) if you don't have one already. Read up on using glue and other techniques for cleaning. Get a zerostat and use it. It's harder to hear "realistic" sound when it is filled with snaps, crackles and pops, than when it emerges from silence.

9. Don't forget that most recordings won't sound live, because they are ... recordings! Recordings made using only two top-quality microphones spaced about head-width (perhaps 8 inches) apart from a "sweet spot" in a venue will usually sound the most realistic. Direct-to-disk, done well, can be great. But nearly all recordings are made through mixing boards and all kinds of gear, with a lot of decisions about how things "should sound" being made by the engineers. The result will be how the engineer thinks we want to hear the sound, not a perfect reflection of the actual sound. Most recordings will never sound "live" no matter what system they are played back on -- but they can still sound very, very good. A few recordings can sound truly live, if played on the right gear, but the "right" gear is usually extremely rare and expensive.

The fun of this hobby lies in the pursuit of perfection, not necessarily in the accomplishment of it. Get tweaking and modifying, start experimenting, and as resources allow, start upgrading. You'll be rewarded at each stage with improvements (Of course, if a given change doesn't bring improvement, then change it back! :D). You'll probably never hear a recording in your home system that is really and truly indistinguishable from a live performance... but as you get close(r) to that quality, you'll get a heck of a lot of listening enjoyment along the way! :music: :yes: :thmbsp:



... A lot of recorded music is meant to sound like something else..it's meant to sound like a good recording. And that is still pretty amazing to me. That these little marks on a vinyl disc can turn into a pretty amazing approximation of real life music in my room is just fantastic. I love it! And of all the formats, I love vinyl the most. It just feels and sounds right to me.

Quoted for truth, for a lot of us! :thmbsp:



A very great many things must go or be done exactly right to get a near live experience from a sound system. If the speakers seem to disappear when you sit back and close your eyes your system is getting just about as close as it can get. ...

That "speakers disappearing" is something I use as a dividing line between regular music systems and "audiophile" systems. If I can close my eyes and point to where the speakers are, that system isn't "audiophile" at all.

Soundstage is also critical: can you hear precisely where performers are located? If I can point to the singer's mouth, and it is the sonic size of a singer's mouth (not ten feet wide, and vaguely defined!), that's a good sign. If the sound of the singer's foot tapping tells me whether the speaker is seated or standing, and how tall (s)he is, that's good. If I can tell whether the floor is wood or cement, and what kind of soles the shoes have, that's even better. If I can point out where the drummer is, and tell exactly how much higher the cymbals are than the snare drum, and which side of the bass drum the snare drum is mounted, etc... then that is good. If I can tell from the sound whether the drumstick hitting the cymbal is plastic or wood, that's even better. If the singer and the drummer and the guitarist, etc... are each in a realistic place in relation to each other, and not squished together between the speakers nor flattened into a movie screen-like plane, that's good.

Sound quality plays a role, too: I listen for things like realistic attack and decay, dynamic range, and so-called "PRAT" (the simple explanation of PRAT --pace, rhythm and timing-- is "does toe-tapping music really make me want to tap my feet?"). Does a piano (one of the hardest of instruments to re-create accurately) sound like a piano, or a pale imitation of a piano?

These things come from different factors: Linn introduced "PRAT" in its advertising because that is something its players could deliver reasonably well --although ironically some of the idler-drive TTs they were using the concept to compete against actually out-perform the Linn TTs on exactly that measure, once transplanted into massive plinths (but who knew to do that, back then?). IF your source --recording and source playback gear, such as a record and TT-- don't have it, no later gear in the chain can add it. Dynamics can be expanded or compressed by later gear, but it is best to have them in the recording, as much as possible. The final transducer --the speakers-- are absolutely critical to a "lifelike" performance. Synergy and impedance-matching between components can be critical. Cables don't have to be ultra-fancy, but they have to be sufficient to transfer the signal without loss or interference, at least "good enough" --and cables can affect sound, up to a point.

There is too much complexity involved in audio -- too many compromises and trade-offs inherent in each design approach-- to say that there is one "perfect" way to re-create sound. But that very complexity makes it possible for us to spend years in the hobby, without running out of things to try and improvements to make. Along the way, each improvement brings added satisfaction. And underlying it all, should remain that sense of amazement that JohnVF referred to, at the marvelous, fantastic way that a squiggle in vinyl really can make an almost-live performance appear in our home.
 
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I was thinking about this today, as much as i like my current setup (Sansui
G-2000 receiver, b&w speakers, c.e.c cuho denki TT with new grado black cart.) ...i wonder, can turntables, with their setup, really sound that good? if you play a record,turn off the lights, close your eyes, can it actually seem like the band is playing in front of you? or is this a ghost that we have always been chasing ??? if you do get the "live" sound out of your setup, would you be so kind as to share your setup tips/equipment? thanks
fabs

Yes they can! It all comes down to a good synergy with your gear based on what you can afford and you don't have to spend crazy money to get the magic (though it does help:)). If your like me and have a family to support first over getting the best sounding setup then you have to be resourceful and dedicate a bit of time to research, tweak and match.

Often a bit of DIY can bring on good gains without busting the bank. Single Full range drivers are cheap and are VERY intimate (yes they have there limitations) but lights out, late at night, good power coming through the wall, they are open and communicative oh and good value FOR THE EXPERIENCE.

Make sure all the rest of your gear works well together. Enough gain out of your phono amp, a nice old vintage cart like the old Shures or a 103 or a modern musical equivalent. Positioning already talked about, a single malt:) It will happen for you. Bottom line, SYNERGY with your gear which does take time but well worth it.

Good luck.
 
Arkay A lot of good points have been made in this thread.

One thing hasn't been mentioned, though, which is VERY important: the gear itself. MOST audio gear will NEVER be able to better than roughly approximate something that our brains can re-interpret as "live-like" sound...


Beautifully put in all respects!!:thmbsp:
 
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A lot of good points have been made in this thread.
...



Beautifully put in all respects!!:thmbsp:

Thanks! ...but you might want to put an ellipsis (three dots: ... ) instead of quoting the whole thing, to save some of AK's server storage space. I get a bit long-winded (:scratch2:...long fingered?) at times! :D

P.S. - Your quote made me notice a glitch in the quotes that I used: somehow a "D" was inserted to create "/QDUOTE" between brackets, which screwed up my quote boxes. I've corrected it in my original post now, but it appears that your quote of the post remains uncorrected, so something someone else wrote looks as if I wrote it, and some of my text is in a quote box. If you go back and delete that extra "D" inside the "/QUOTE" near the beginning of the bottom blue box, it should correct itself. That is, if you don't just delete it all and replace it with "...".
 
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I have never heard a live recording sound as good as a proper studio recording.

This thread helped me along a bit in (understanding how to and why) setting up my speakers correctly.

http://mail.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=319534

Keep in mind that not every piece of equipment/system will do the stereo/imaging trick as well.

There are a few systems out there that CAN sound live. Imagine you take all the electronic set-up of a rock band on stage, and simply replace the inputs from microphones and pick-ups with excellent reel-tape studio recordings made from the performers and their instruments. Play those back through the regular amps and speakers the band uses, in the concert venue. The result will be as if the band itself were playing! Why?

Though I hate to disagree with you imho it will not. Why?

Acoustically;
A properly mic'd drum set has a couple of mics on it
A lot guitarists have a cab mic'd, not the guitar output directly

Momentum;
The equipment gives the audience no feedback, the musicians do. Even Kraftwerk (which could be the easiest band to reproduce in the manner you suggest :D) has a very different live sound & presence than recorded.

Imagine;
Do you notice it directly when an artist lip syncs?

Etc.
 
Bands

if you play a record,turn off the lights, close your eyes, can it actually seem like the band is playing in front of you? or is this a ghost that we have always been chasing ???
What kind of band? Dixieland? Allman Brothers Band? Small jazz band? Symphony orchestra?

I think my setup would come closer to approximating the sound of a small jazz band playing in an intimate venue than the ABB with all the stops out.

I think your question about what ghost we a chasing is a good one. I guess my ghost is enjoyable music reproduced as faithfully as possible. Sometimes I think this can be an improvement over the real thing. I would have loved to have attended the 2010 Eric Clapton Guitar Festival. Luckily, I have the Blu Ray of the event. The audio engineers did a wonderful job and I'm confident what I hear in the comfort of my Home Theater is actually better than what I would have heard over the PA sitting 200 feet from the stage.

I can think of two other examples. The music of Wendy Carlos can not be played live, it is layered and has to be recorded to be heard as intended. Maybe the correct ghost to chase is her monitor speaker setup! Also, a recording is the only way I can hear what John Lennon intended with "Lucy In the Sky With Diamonds". The funny thing is that it wouldn't be hard to hear it on better equipment than was available when it was recorded and mixed.
 
A bad one can sound worse than about anything.

That part is often left out of these discussions but it's so true. When I read posts about how awesome vinyl is (or sometimes "vinyls"-cringe) sometimes I think the person is just getting off on the tactile and arcane nature of it. Even an average sounding LP rig is usually easily beaten by CD for sound quality (ducks). It doesn't necessarily take a huge amount of money to get good LP sound but it certainly takes a lot of work and careful attention to a lot of little details. Getting those details right, and having the ability to dial many of them in to suit only your taste, is one of the great things about LP playback. It's very personalized, with cartridge and even stylus choice, so many types of players, etc. With CD, its much more homogenized. It sounds good, but it's sort of just enjoying what you're given instead of making it your own.
 
Speaking only of unamplified, acoustic music....

I think that one big stumbling block is spatial relationships. When you hear live music, the spatial relationship between the individual players, and between you and the players, and in the room are all parts of an equation that won't be reproduced at home.

Timbre is another problem. I think a lot of folks don't have much direct experience with how instruments really sound, especially alone. Sure, they might attend the symphony once a year, and go to the jazz club monthly, but any kid in a high school band has a better feel for the real sound of an instrument.

I think that technology can and will solve that first problem, in a limited and exclusive sort of way. That is nice, because the first problem is, I think, the larger of the two. As for the other, I don't know if any one speaker system will ever be able to reproduce horns, strings, percussion and vocal cords convincingly.

I've heard a lot of music played in my living room, including a six piece jazz combo, a woodwind quintet, a grand piano and numerous other single instruments. The only time that recorded music sounded real to me, in that same room, was solo piano and solo female voice, both only a few times and both only very briefly. Of course, my stereo is very modest, but I have never been fooled by the others I have heard.

Add to all this the fact that most recordings don't even attempt to sound like an actual concert event, but rather try to sound good. That is where I am heading in my own system, trying to sound good.
 
Speaking only of unamplified, acoustic music....

I think that one big stumbling block is spatial relationships. When you hear live music, the spatial relationship between the individual players, and between you and the players, and in the room are all parts of an equation that won't be reproduced at home.

Timbre is another problem. I think a lot of folks don't have much direct experience with how instruments really sound, especially alone. Sure, they might attend the symphony once a year, and go to the jazz club monthly, but any kid in a high school band has a better feel for the real sound of an instrument.

I think that technology can and will solve that first problem, in a limited and exclusive sort of way. That is nice, because the first problem is, I think, the larger of the two. As for the other, I don't know if any one speaker system will ever be able to reproduce horns, strings, percussion and vocal cords convincingly.

I've heard a lot of music played in my living room, including a six piece jazz combo, a woodwind quintet, a grand piano and numerous other single instruments. The only time that recorded music sounded real to me, in that same room, was solo piano and solo female voice, both only a few times and both only very briefly. Of course, my stereo is very modest, but I have never been fooled by the others I have heard.

Add to all this the fact that most recordings don't even attempt to sound like an actual concert event, but rather try to sound good. That is where I am heading in my own system, trying to sound good.

There are speakers, sources and amplification these days that really get the spatial relationship thing down. It can be pretty spooky. Things imaging outside of, in front, and behind the speakers. Everybody in their right place. I've only heard it really convincingly a few times...one time was on 6' high Magnepan MG-20.1s driven by several tens of thousands of dollars of amps and sources in a large, dedicated, treated room, with only one listening chair. Timbre was a bit off, though. That was from CD. LP might have been better, but then there's a certain amount of dynamic compression inherent in the format that can be a big clue that something isn't live.

Timbre is a big sticking point with me. I think vinyl gets it right. I think tubes, for whatever reason, get it right more than a lot of solid state. But that complete lack of compression is something I don't know that will ever be tackled. The very act of recording music involves some loss of dynamics....perhaps even down to the movement of the diaphragm in the microphone.
 
Wow! What a fast-moving thread! And so many issues being crammed into one discussion! I haven't read every post so far, but am going to jump in anyway.

In response the the OPs question: "Can turntables really sound that good???"
YES! yes, yes yes!!:banana:

There is a point of turntable performance (with all it's component parts; arm, cartridge, drive system, base) where you can no longer hear the turntable--you just hear music.

Someone here (Maybe Mr Lin or JohnVF or LonL, or maybe it was the musings of a certain barnyard animal) once said in comparing CD players to Turntables that the higher up the food chain you go, the more they sound alike. Which I take to mean that the gear and the medium become more transparent. I've certainly found this to be true as I've made upgrades in my own set-up. My CDp and my TT are both equally transparent and open sounding. And, FWIW, The retail value of my analog set up is about 3x that of my CDp. If my TT was worth only the value of the CD player, I suspect there'd be an obvious difference in final performance.

A decent turntable/cartridge/preamp set up can sound amazing. A bad one can sound worse than about anything.
So true.


I don't really care what live music sounds like, I just love the sound of my system!
I think it's an all-too-common misunderstanding that our systems are "supposed" to sound like live performances. There honestly aren't that many recordings that intend to capture a live performance, so how could a system make a recording into something is simply isn't? (Some well-known examples of this might be Dire Straits' Brothers in Arms or Steely Dan's Two Against Nature where it sounds like half the instruments are plugged directly into the board.)

What we can aspire toward is an experience of un-mediated connection with the music being played. That's different than "live".
 
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Why should the speakers not be angled?

Some should be; some shouldn't be. It depends on the speakers, and to some extent on the listening environment. Experiment with yours to hear for yourself what works best (for yourself).

A decent turntable/cartridge/preamp set up can sound amazing. A bad one can sound worse than about anything.

Quoted for truth. It isn't only limited to the gear itself: how many of us willingly gave up our vinyl-spinning --at least for a while-- when we heard how dead-silent the background was on CDs, even if we sensed that all was not right with CD sound, either? A lot of us didn't realize the importance of really good cleaning of LPs, nor the need for very picky setup, nor how much difference a plinth could make to vinyl sound... with greater knowledge of how to do things better, we migrate back to the records we grew up with, and find them sounding better than they ever did before!

That part is often left out of these discussions but it's so true. When I read posts about how awesome vinyl is (or sometimes "vinyls"-cringe) sometimes I think the person is just getting off on the tactile and arcane nature of it. Even an average sounding LP rig is usually easily beaten by CD for sound quality (ducks). It doesn't necessarily take a huge amount of money to get good LP sound but it certainly takes a lot of work and careful attention to a lot of little details. Getting those details right, and having the ability to dial many of them in to suit only your taste, is one of the great things about LP playback. It's very personalized, with cartridge and even stylus choice, so many types of players, etc. With CD, its much more homogenized. It sounds good, but it's sort of just enjoying what you're given instead of making it your own.

Also very true, and related to what I was touching on above. The vinyl sound we like so much today is often a cut above what most people heard in years past, because we have greater knowledge (thanks largely to the internet) of how to better extract that sound, and we are willing to put in the effort to earn the sonic rewards. For anyone unwilling to put in that work, or pay someone else to do it for them, vinyl isn't likely to sound all that much better (or perhaps worse!) than CDs.

Speaking only of unamplified, acoustic music....

I think that one big stumbling block is spatial relationships. When you hear live music, the spatial relationship between the individual players, and between you and the players, and in the room are all parts of an equation that won't be reproduced at home.

Timbre is another problem. I think a lot of folks don't have much direct experience with how instruments really sound, especially alone. Sure, they might attend the symphony once a year, and go to the jazz club monthly, but any kid in a high school band has a better feel for the real sound of an instrument.

I think that technology can and will solve that first problem, in a limited and exclusive sort of way. That is nice, because the first problem is, I think, the larger of the two. As for the other, I don't know if any one speaker system will ever be able to reproduce horns, strings, percussion and vocal cords convincingly.

I've heard a lot of music played in my living room, including a six piece jazz combo, a woodwind quintet, a grand piano and numerous other single instruments. The only time that recorded music sounded real to me, in that same room, was solo piano and solo female voice, both only a few times and both only very briefly. Of course, my stereo is very modest, but I have never been fooled by the others I have heard.

Add to all this the fact that most recordings don't even attempt to sound like an actual concert event, but rather try to sound good. That is where I am heading in my own system, trying to sound good.


Spatial relationships CAN be accurately reproduced in a home environment, but usually won't be. The main reason is that most recordings don't capture that information accurately enough. It is difficult for any engineer using multiple microphones mixed-down, to recreate an accurate soundstage; only those recordings made with two closely-spaced high-quality mikes in a good listening spot (with or without close-miked suport sounds mixed in expertly) have much chance of achieving it, and few recordings are made that way. Also, it requires very good speakers, typically open-baffle and/or line array designs, to achieve it. Good horn set-ups come close, but always fall just a smidge short, in my experience. Some ribbons do a good job, as can some electrostatics and AMTs (most critical soundstage cues come from the mid-high end; there is stereo in bass, but it is less critical to overall soundstage perception).

I get an amazingly realistic soundstage in my living room with some recordings, using the RS II speakers. The soundstage reflects the original listening space, well beyond the confines of my room's walls, floor and ceiling -- and even extending sometimes to audience noises BEHIND my listening positon (without the use of any rear/surrond speakers). I've sometimes closed my eyes for a while, and nearly fallen off my chair when I opened them, because of the differences between the space I had been perceiving aurally, and what my eyes suddenly saw -kind of cognitive dissonance-shock.
 
Put simply, no, you cannot hope to emulate the sound of a live performance. You can, however get a pleasing sound that enables you to pinpoint where some parts of the sound - instruments, voices etc - are coming from. It's a trick, but it does increase enjoyment, which is what its all about.

I disagree. It may be extremely rare, but there are system/room combinations that with the right quality recordings sound so close to the real acoustic event, that it's essentially the same perception IME. Also, dollar amount never ensures that to happen, I have heard many 50k and higher systems that did not come close to it. Dollars are usually just wasted on ego items that really don't do anything to increase the realistic perception, just pad the buyer's placebo pill effect. But with the right acoustics, specific speaker polar response and related issues, it can happen.
 
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