Can you identify this Ortofon cartridge?

[Kranky]

I only know it's an Ortofon. Came w/out stylus. Can you identify the model?

 

[tnsilver]

Looks like VMS or FF15. There's no telling which, as they are electrically identical. Aside from the intake shaft profile, they also look the same. The stylus determines the cart in this case, but it must match the shaft profile.

VMS on the left, FF15 on the right (both Mk-II):

Notice the intake shaft shape:

There's also differences between the Mk-I and the Mk-II. You may want to produce a close up take of the shaft on that cart for identification. It's tough to tell otherwise.

 

[Blue Shadow]

Here is one for your files, Tom, don't think it is complete.

 

[Kranky]

Thanks guys! Looks tough to tell, indeed. Unfortunately it came without the stylus assembly/intake shaft.
Is this cart worth spending money and time on, soundwise?

 

[tnsilver]

Yes, certainly worth it. The VMS/FF15 carts, especially the ones with the high end styli such as the FF15XE, VMS20E and VMS30 are superb and are highly regarded, (albeit under the radar until very recent years).
They're characterized by the vintage Ortofon house sound, which is on the warm side, but not lossy nor analytical, and are extremely able performers. Just to make it clear, the intake is on the cart, the shaft is on the stylus,
so it may be possible to ID by the shape of the square/hourglass opening on the cart. It requires a good hi-res image.

 

[patient_ot]

Anyone know if a VMS30 stylus will work in an F15E body?

 

[stratokaster]

I'm pretty sure all Ortofon FF and VMS series bodies accept the same range of styli. If you look at the H-shaped shaft, it's just like the hourglass-shaped shaft with cutouts at the top and at the bottom, but there's nothing inside the cartridge body to prevent the regular hourglass shaft from going in. Most M-series styli (such as M20E) are compatible as well.

The only styli that are incompatible with VMS series bodies are styli for the M Super range of cartridges (pic attached).

 

[tnsilver]

It's a nice thought and not necessarily wrong for most parts, but a little disclaimer is due. Ortofon were masters at making sure their top notch styli won't fit in their lower end carts, even if technically they're all the same. They do it for marketing reasons to this day and they've been at it for decades. Here for example, the FF15XE stylus would fit in the VMS body, but NOT vice versa. The reason, as mentioned earlier... is the intake shaft profile:

Here's, the VMS intake hourglass profile:

It would take in both VMS (right #3) and FF15 (left #8):

and here's the FF15 intake (which appears square)

but it would NOT take in the VMS stylus, although it's own stylus would fit in the VMS body...

Adding insult to injury, it appears that over the years Ortofon changed the profiles on the shafts of their styli even for the same model.

Here are two different shafts on the same FF15XE stylus (black vs. yellow):

compare to this:

So it appears a little too complex to be generally certain which body would accept which stylus

 

[stratokaster]

I see, it seems at first FF shaft was VMS compatible, but now it's not I didn't know this.

I wonder if F series styli would work in VMS bodies... If I remember correctly, the earliest F cartridges were moving magnet as opposed to moving iron?

 

[tnsilver]

If I remember correctly, the earliest F cartridges were moving magnet as opposed to moving iron?

I think so too and IIRC so were the 70's M's, but unfortunately I don't have any F's or M's to test. The later 80's made FF15 and VMS are "Variable Magnetic Shunt" which I guess is Ortofon's acronym for what's known as a moving iron.

 

[stratokaster]

On the other hand, Thakker lists Ortofon F 20 EO stylus as being compatible with many other cartridges...

"Kompatible Tonabnehmersysteme: Ortofon M 15 Super, M 15 E Super, VMS 20 E MKII, VMS 20 EC MKII, VMS 20 EO MKII, VMS 20 S und VMS 20 XE MKII"

 

[tnsilver]

yes, Thakker is one of my most trusted retailers and most of my O'fon accessories come from their German shop. They know what they're talking about. I see the conundrum here though. If the M15 is a moving magnet cart, how would a moving iron stylus work with it... I'm not saying it is an MM with certainty but the magnet at the end of a cantilever is also, well... at least technically, an 'iron'. I have both a Stanton 681EEE MI and 881S MM carts that have the exact same body but a very different generator, and the amazing Pfanstiehl 4822-DEE stylus works perfectly with both. It was member Needlestein who made this discovery a few years ago, and at the time he made this public, it sounded so incredible that I thought he got it mixed up somehow. He didn't.

A few years later I'm with the opinion it's not that surprising at all. A lump of metal at the end of a cantilever could just as well be a magnet. Theoretically a magnet can cause magnetization of coils that should not be magnetized and inflict permanent, or long endured damage. It did not happen with my 681EEE. I'm assuming, if the M15 is indeed an MM, and if Thakker is (probably) correct, the same principal applies here too.

Nice talking to you, but I've got to finish some work and hit the sack for what's left of tonight.

 

[cabby]

To further add confusion the profile is different for same color stylus of same model.

 

[Crab33]

The one on the right in the left photo has a profile that's a combination of H and hour-glass. Many of the later and current styli are like this. I guess it's to allow the stylus to fit more than one type of VMS/F/FF cartridge body.

 

[cabby]

The one on the right in the left photo has a profile that's a combination of H and hour-glass. Many of the later and current styli are like this. I guess it's to allow the stylus to fit more than one type of VMS/F/FF cartridge body.

The package for the right one ( H shaped ) says it will fit VMS5e mkii and ff15xe mkii, but does not list any other bodies. Does that mean it won't fit the VMS20e mkii?
Between this cartridge and my Shure "M" hi-track series, it's a world of confusion for me......

 

[tnsilver]

To further add confusion the profile is different for same color stylus of same model.

The "H" hourglass profile (a.k.a 'universal') is the later run of the FF15XE. It will fit where square "U" and "H" shafts will but not where solid hourglass profile do (top tier VMS bodies). The black FF15XE Mk-II, still available from Ortofon is likely sourced from Jico and is, or was until very recently, still made. Most of the Ortofon made styli in this series have a silvery sticker at the front of the cart while the later have the lettering printed directly on the plastic.

Ortofon initially went through some length to make sure the lower tier bodies cannot be upgraded with the higher end styli, despite all the F/FF/VMS bodies being electrically identical. The universal profile is a regression from this policy.

 

[cabby]

The "H" hourglass profile (a.k.a 'universal') is the later run of the FF15XE. It will fit where square "U" and "H" shafts will but not where solid hourglass profile do (top tier VMS bodies). The black FF15XE Mk-II, still available from Ortofon is likely sourced from Jico and is, or was until very recently, still made. Most of the Ortofon made styli in this series have a silvery sticker at the front of the cart while the later have the lettering printed directly on the plastic.

Ortofon initially went through some length to make sure the lower tier bodies cannot be upgraded with the higher end styli, despite all the F/FF/VMS bodies being electrically identical. The universal profile is a regression from this policy.

Can you tell me what is considered lower tier and higher tier in the line up?
As attached above, I have the ff15xe mkii. This has the best bass I've heard in any carts I have and overall very pleasant.

 

[Blue Shadow]

Ortofon initially went through some length to make sure the lower tier bodies cannot be upgraded with the higher end styli, despite all the F/FF/VMS bodies being electrically identical. The universal profile is a regression from this policy.

I do believe the different shapes were Ortofon's way of controlling the cartridge upgrade path back then. Since today it is more about selling a replacement stylus, not an upgraded cartridge, the move to the universal fit is a good move.

Since I have an FF or VMS body with no identifiers, I want to get a new nail for it but had no idea which would fit or what their qualities were even though I sold Ortofon back in the day. So I hunted these down (Ortofon's site) just yesterday so here you are @cabby.

 

[cabby]

It's kinda silly b/c the bodies are all the same so the rating is strictly stylus related, but the top tier would be the VMS line up starting with the 3E all the way to VMS30. The FF15XE would be about the same in tracking ability as the 2nd in line 5E from the VMS series, except it's less of a compliant stylus so often better performs with mid/high mass tonearms. Excellent stylus. I love it too!

K, thx. So the " D5E " stylus would be the equivalent in the VMS lineup which makes sense since the packaging says these are interchangeable. Packaging for the ff15xe mkii says tracking is 1.7-2.30 while the website says 1.5-3.0g..... info is all over the place.
I have is set to just under 2g and its sounding fine.

 

[tnsilver]

Is that a genuine Ortofon package or a replacement stylus?