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Capacitor break in time? Is it real?

Carbsandcaps

Super Member
I’m a mechanic so I know engine break in time is real. I know camshaft break in time is critical. But how about capacitor break in time?

What about the construction of a capacitor would change over use? What would “break in”? I’ve especially heard this about pio caps. Is this real or is it just our ears getting used to a different (for better or worse) amplifier?
 
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I’m a mechanic so I know engine break in time is real. I know camshaft break in time is critical. But how about capacitor break in time?

What about the construction of a capacitor would change over use? What would “break in”? I’ve especially heard this about pio caps. Is this real or is it just our ears getting used to a different (for better or worse) amplifier?
It is as real as Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, The tooth Fairy..........
I expect there will be those that disagree with me but I do not believe in them either........
 
People won't even agree that caps sound different, let alone acknowledging a burn in time. However, my whole system is riddled with lots of tiny changes that I'm repeatedly told I can't hear. I happily disagree,

It may not be as dramatic as a new pair of speakers, but if you have a high resolution system in a good room that's setup well, you might be surprised at what you can hear if you actually spend a significant amount of time listening closely.....good caps and their burn in included. There are a lot of variables in play, and I'm in no position to inform anyone what they can or cannot hear, so I'll suggest you give it a good try, and see for yourself.
 
I’m a mechanic so I know engine break in time is real. I know camshaft break in time is critical. But how about capacitor break in time?

What about the construction of a capacitor would change over use? What would “break in”? I’ve especially heard this about pio caps. Is this real or is it just our ears getting used to a different (for better or worse) amplifier?

IMO it's a bit of both. And IMO it applies to caps, resistors, transformers and tubes. I've built amps for friends and I wouldn't even think of sending them out until I'd played them for at least a week.
 
This subject again? Reforming of electrolytics is a scientifically proven phenomenon. The aluminum oxide layer degrades when caps are not in use and many new caps I have ordered from digikey and mouser come in at 4 years and older sometimes so they will benefit from reforming. Dont believe it then explain why cap manufacturers and even the US Dept of Defense has documents stating cap reforming is suggested for caps that sit on shelves for too long. After reforming DC Leakage will be improved the most, and it reforms within hours not weeks or months. Whether you can hear it is up for debate but whether changes occurs to the caps specifications isnt because it can be scientifically measured.
 
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This subject again. Reforming of electrolytics is a scientifically proven phenomenon. The aluminum oxide layer degrades when caps are not in use and many new caps I have ordered from digikey and mouser come in at 4 years and older sometimes so they will benefit from reforming. Dont believe it then explain why cap manufacturers and even the US Dept of Defense has documents stating cap reforming is suggested for caps that sit on shelves for too long. After reforming DC Leakage will be improved the most, and it reforms within hours not weeks or months. Whether you can hear it is up for debate but whether changes occurs to the caps specifications isnt because it can be scientifically measured.
That’s the answer I was looking for. Especially for Russian pio caps that have been sitting since the Cold War. Whether I hear it or not at least there’s proof one way or the other.
 
IMO it's a bit of both. And IMO it applies to caps, resistors, transformers and tubes. I've built amps for friends and I wouldn't even think of sending them out until I'd played them for at least a week.
I do/did the same but it was mainly to ensure the amp was burned in as a whole. To make sure it was stable and nothing went bonkers.
 
That’s the answer I was looking for. Especially for Russian pio caps that have been sitting since the Cold War. Whether I hear it or not at least there’s proof one way or the other.
Ahhh, you did not give us the whole story behind the question, now we see the real premise.
 
The manuals of Variable Frequency Drives, VFD’s, always have a section that directs you to start applying a lower voltage to the input of the drive if it has been sitting unused. There’s typically a chart that shows the voltage and time at that voltage specifically to reform the large capacitors that are used in them.
 
In my experience, many electronic components show changes when first powered up in a circuit. Most often it’s subtle to barely noticeable. Sometimes it’s clear. It takes minutes to a few hours to resolve. Maybe it’s caps forming. Maybe it’s because this is the first time these devices have been run at operating temps/voltage/current flow. I don’t know and I have not seen a pattern (not enough repeat projects).

I’ve heard it most often in kits, because, I presume, that I’m the manufacturer, and most of the devices have never been in a circuit before and there are lots of new devices interacting for the first time. I’ve heard it in repairs, too. I’d be surprised if it occurred in fully assembled, retail devices. These should have been tested for hours or days before they received final approval at the factory. Customer returns are a really bad thing.

As far as taking hundreds of hours to burn in, I’m skeptical. Human hearing memory for details over time is very questionable. It’s more likely that our brains adjusted to the sound or something environmental, psychological, or physiological has changed that subtly altered our perception rather that actual, noticeable changes over such a long time.

I do know that caps change over time. I’ve done recaps on devices with 40 to 50 year old caps and heard massive improvements in SQ. But that’s a long time horizon. I’ve also done recaps and heard almost no change in SQ. Mostly this can be attributed to how close to spec they are after 50 years, but could also be a magical 400,000 hour burn in period.
 
There’s typically a chart that shows the voltage and time at that voltage specifically to reform the large capacitors that are used in them.
Great crossover reference. I’d also assume it was the big caps in audio gear, too. The time frames I’ve read are measured in minutes, like 5 minutes + 1 minute for each month in storage.
 

Proof that some phenomenon occurs in electrolytic capacitors is unlikely to be relevant to whether there's any similar-acting phenomenon in PIO caps.

I hope that doesn't come across as pedantic. I though it might be not be obvious to everyone.
 
That’s the answer I was looking for. Especially for Russian pio caps that have been sitting since the Cold War. Whether I hear it or not at least there’s proof one way or the other.
This only applies to aluminium electrolytic capacitors, as mentioned in the comment.
Reforming of aluminium oxide layer !
 
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