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Capacitor quality is the reason why people prefer tubes over solid state ??

bob412

bob412

Active Member
I read an article several days ago in pdf form by Walt Jung & Richard Marsh - "Picking capacitors part 1 and part 2 . He basically said that tube amps have much better quality capacitors ( film,ect ) as opposed to cheap electrolytic capacitors in their output stages and this is one of the main reasons why people prefer them over SS designs . Cheap electrolytic capacitors is the reason for poor solid state sound , if high quality film caps could be used in solid state output stages the bright sound of solid state amps could be tuned out with these quality caps .
Walt Jung believed that a big reason people may prefer tube amplifiers is because they usually use much better capacitors for the audio signal path. There are people online that swear by this signal path capacitor upgrade. What do you think ?
 
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I'd have to see his list of amps. It's hard to make generalizations. I do think when you see people claiming great changes or improvements by changing caps, it's more often with tube amps. Since this is the solid state forum, I can safely say that tube amps are highly flawed devices and rarely put out the same signals that go in. The internal impedances of the circuits are very different than solid state amps. It isn't surprising they're affected by everything, include the phase of the moon. Now, being a good politician, if I were in the tube forum I'd phrase things entirely differently and trash talk solid state. BTW & IMO, most solid state designs would be better off with modern opamps and direct coupling to avoid the plethora of caps found in most receivers. There's nothing magical about two-transistor class a small signal amplfiers with input and output caps.
 
It's hard to believe Walt Jung would say or believe that. There many other reasons why one would prefer one or the other than capacitors.

Are we talking about Jung or Yung?
Craig
 
ConradH said:
I'd have to see his list of amps. It's hard to make generalizations. I do think when you see people claiming great changes or improvements by changing caps, it's more often with tube amps. Since this is the solid state forum, I can safely say that tube amps are highly flawed devices and rarely put out the same signals that go in. The internal impedances of the circuits are very different than solid state amps. It isn't surprising they're affected by everything, include the phase of the moon. Now, being a good politician, if I were in the tube forum I'd phrase things entirely differently and trash talk solid state. BTW & IMO, most solid state designs would be better off with modern opamps and direct coupling to avoid the plethora of caps found in most receivers. There's nothing magical about two-transistor class a small signal amplfiers with input and output caps.
Click to expand...

You previously declared all amps sound the same. Right. The fact that tubes bend the signal is what makes them so good to listen to.
 
SoCal Sam said:
You previously declared all amps sound the same. Right. The fact that tubes bend the signal is what makes them so good to listen to.
Click to expand...

There are a lot of caveats to the "all amps sound the same" statement. It's invariably a mistake to take it out of context. In general, I believe the differences between decent solid state amps of the same quality level are small if everything is working right and if the amps are operating within their capabilities. There are still amps I prefer over others. Tube amps are all over the place in terms of sound quality. There are some that are good, but people seem to think that any ancient thing with tubes is inherently wonderful. Whatever makes 'em happy, but I don't usually find them satisfying. Caveat- my experience with expensive high end tube stuff is near zero. (and will no doubt remain so if I keep posting ;-)
 
bob412 said:
I read an article several days ago in pdf form by Walt Yung . He basically said that tube amps have much better quality capacitors ( film,ect ) as opposed to cheap electrolytic capacitors in their output stages and this is one of the main reasons why people prefer them over SS designs . Cheap electrolytic capacitors is the reason for poor solid state sound , if high quality film caps could be used in solid state output stages the bright sound of solid state amps could be tuned out with these quality caps .
Walt Jung believed that a big reason people may prefer tube amplifiers is because they usually use much better capacitors for the audio signal path. There are people online that swear by this signal path capacitor upgrade. What do you think ?
Click to expand...

With all do respect... I wouldn't have to know anything about electronics, to know that a sweeping statement like this must be erroneous. All tube amps have better quality caps ? Don't think so. Are you sure you are quoting him correctly or is this your filtered version of the article? Is there reason to upgrade capacitors? Sure, in many cases. Fake news is no news... but is it still news? Sure.
 
Heck, you can build a SS or tube amplifier with all film caps if you want. But as the value of the cap gets higher so can the physical size of the cap. Look at some large value film caps, they are really huge! Then there is the price difference. Now you have an amp thats physically larger and much more expensive.
Ive seen low watt tube amps built with all film caps and they were larger than they would have been using electrolytics, especially for the power supply.
 
biscuithead said:
With all do respect... I wouldn't have to know anything about electronics, to know that a sweeping statement like this must be erroneous. All tube amps have better quality caps ? Don't think so. Are you sure you are quoting him correctly or is this your filtered version of the article? Is there reason to upgrade capacitors? Sure, in many cases. Fake news is no news... but is it still news? Sure.
Click to expand...

Just Google ; ' Picking capacitors - by Walt Jung and Richard Marsh ' , the article is rather lengthy but they actually stated that cap quality will improve solid state sound , and electrolytic caps aren't that good . It's in the article , maybe not word for word but it's there .
 
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You can replace a lot of the signal path electrolytic caps with film. Not all, some would simply be far too massive to actually use, but many places it can be done. It gets pricey but if you're keen to experiment what I'd suggest is getting three identical units. Leave one original as a control. Re-cap one with electrolytic caps, re-cap the other with as many film caps as you possibly can. Listen to them, judge for yourself.
 
bob412 said:
Just Google ; ' Picking capacitors - by Walt Jung and Richard Marsh ' , the article is rather lengthy but they actually stated that cap quality will improve solid state sound , and electrolytic caps aren't that good . It's in the article , maybe not word for word but it's there .
Click to expand...

I'm not disputing that a higher quality ( or just modern vs 40+ yo ) capacitor will be better... of course a higher quality cap is better than a lower quality cap. Why is a lengthy article needed to state such obvious evidence? "cap quality will improve sound " hmm, I wonder if the quality of other components is a factor in the quality of the sound also?
I am reminded of some of the arguments that I get into with my wife...
 
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What the article says is that "The 'solid-state sound' we've all heard discussed may be largely due to lousy electrolytics---which by and large never got used in the signal path in the tube days."

Whether or not it is a true statement, it is not the same as saying that lack of electrolytics is why tubes (may) sound good, only that capacitor quality was less of an issue in tube amplifiers.

www.waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_1.pdf
www.waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_2.pdf
 
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