I agree, though at an even lower cartridge cost. In 1984, I had recently purchased a Thorens TD146 turntable and was shopping for an amplifier. Long story short, a dealer demo'd an LP12 with Basik Plus arm and Basik cartridge against my Thorens TD146, and he happily mounted up any cartridge I wanted to hear on the Thorens, and the Linn combo easily beat it. I also heard the Basik cartridge on an Ittok outperform the Basik Plus arm with any cartridge I cared to hear. I've never been in a financial position to want to spend hundreds of dollars on an annual stylus change, so the idea of getting superb performance from budget cartridges was very appealing. It meant saving up for one major purchase, but that major purchase would transform the sound I'd get from cheap cartridges for the next 20 years or so (the expected bearing life on an LP12). That made the LP12 seem like a very good bargain to me (I should mention that in 1985, an LP12 with Basik Plus arm and Basik cartridge sold for about $960). I also bought a Naim Nait integrated amp from that same dealer.
Cart the least important in vinyl replay chain, well according to Linn..
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Very interesting story and it makes me wonder whether you stayed with the Linn to the present? If so, and if you are a heavy vinyl listener, that is actually tremendous value for dollars spent, which is something I don't normally think about when I think of Linn machines. Cool.
Each person's criteria for sound quality has to be taken into consideration, and moving coil cartridges (yours is a Koetsu, I think) present a more expansive soundstage than I've heard from any moving magnet/moving iron design. For my own needs, I'm much more sensitive to differences in pace, rhythm, and dynamics than I am to soundstage characteristics. In fact, I've listened mostly to single speaker mono reproduction for the past few years due to a living situation/room that does not support stereo very well. Even when I had stereo, I often preferred to listen while lying on a couch off to the side and with one ear pressed against a pillow--not the best position for stereophonic effect.
tubewade
Super Member
Well stated. And my experience largely mirrors yours. Mine was a Pioneer turntable at that time. No matter what cartridge was on the Pioneer, the Linn easily sounded startlingly better with even a simple Basik Plus tonearm and Basik cartridge. I also witnessed this test against other mass market turntables at the time and with the same outcome. Being in college, there was little spare money, and had to purchased the Axis rather than the Sondek but have never regretted that purchase. It took me through the "dark ages" of vinyl when others had abandoned their records. Today, well the Linn is still better than the other decks I have, but the convenience of automatic stop, et cetera, have gained a great appeal to me and often takes precedence over ultimate sound, so the Linn resides next to another, and I can choose. The Linn presently has a Shure M35X cartridge/stylus.
I had my ups and downs financially over the years, and the Ittok arm I bought in the 1980's was sold at one point to help pay the rent (picking up a used Basik LVX to use instead). In 1993, with more money to spend, I heard the LP12 Cirkus modification, and got a good deal selling my 1985 LP12 towards a new 1993 Cirkus model with Ittok LVIII/2 arm. I used that combination for about two decades when my dealer told me I was faced with soon-to-be-needed replacement of the main bearing/subplatter, and possibly the motor and power supply should be changed out as well after so many years. The arm bearings were still good as new. Looking at my options, and looking at going from full-time work to substitute teaching, I opted to have the dealer sell the 'table for me, the proceeds of which proving to be more than enough to later pick up a new Rega RP3, a player I found far better than the P3-24 that preceded it, and a player that met and still meets my expectations for musical enjoyment. I know it should have seemed like a major downgrade, but I find myself playing music as much or more and enjoying it just as much as I did with the Linn. Maybe my now older ears are more easily satisfied, or maybe the Rega really is an extraordinary performer for the price.
That 1993 LP12/Ittok was certainly an outstanding bargain, giving me a couple decades of trouble-free excellence, then still being able to be sold for enough to get me an acceptable replacement with no money out of pocket, a replacement that will likely last longer than I do (I've read that Rega expects their 'tables to last 25 years, and with my family history of male longevity, I probably won't come close to that).
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I've had an Lp12 Valhala, circa 1983 with Basik arm, for a about five years. Had an unknown Grado Prestige cart. Now with AT 440 mla. Carts had different tone, Grado, AT and Shure from my experience of MM carts of similar cost. A variable here is how well a cart is aligned. Not an easy process for non professional or with little experience.
I find Linn a nice table on sound concrete floors, where it has always been. Longevity of these tables is impressive. Had a Technics Sl1400mk2 bought new and pampered. Had design problems over 20years.
Interesting thread.
I find Linn a nice table on sound concrete floors, where it has always been. Longevity of these tables is impressive. Had a Technics Sl1400mk2 bought new and pampered. Had design problems over 20years.
Interesting thread.
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I find it's about the synergy of the whole, why purchase a great table then hamper it with a budget cartridge? Or purchase an expensive cartridge to install on a bottom feeder table?
MRL_Audio
RIP 2022
Yes or pretty damn close. I have taken very nice cartridges that would normally be for high end decks and put them on $500 tables. The finding was the cheap table can get pretty close, but people have a hard time putting the money into a cartridge. When some one says they want to upgrade their SL-1300 with a $100 cart to some $1500-$2000 table. I try and tell them the money could be better on a $800-$1000 cart instead, I get, "the table isn't worth a cart that cost that much", "I'd never spend that much on a cart"
Nothing like one turd stinking up the whole room
Well now, you said a $500 table, if used that could include some pretty nice tables lol.
ripblade
Addicted Member
Nope, it's true....heard it long before the internet. Besides, how else can they justify rebranding a cheap AT and selling it at a significant markup?Does anyone have a link to the actual Linn statement ?
Or is it one of those I read it somewhere on the internet thing?
Think I read that somewhere...
Ah, but your vagueness could have included the "system" as a whole, where I narrowed it down to table and cartridge lol.
But I said a cart that would normally be put on a high end table, I'v never seen a high end table normally sell for $500 being new or used. I left out the price of what I would consider high end but the starting point IMHO is around $5000 without arm and cartridge. Adding the cart and arm starts to put you in the $10,000 area. Now you might get this as a used package for half the cost, but not $500.
Djcoolray
Addicted Member
Right....
There is a relationship to be considered between the cartridge and the phono stage, just like there is a relationship between the output capacitors on the power board of an amplifier and the crossover in a speaker. Sonic quality is created and does not just come out of the box new.
There is a relationship to be considered between the cartridge and the phono stage, just like there is a relationship between the output capacitors on the power board of an amplifier and the crossover in a speaker. Sonic quality is created and does not just come out of the box new.
WaynerN
Addicted Member
I have a $1000 wood body Grado on my AR-XA........it proves your point!
noisefreq
Super Member
Haven't experienced a Linn TT but I would assume any quality table and arm would show any shortcomings of an average cart.
I'm using Thorens and AR currently.
But, just because a cartridge is expensive doesn't mean it's a superior cart.
My current favorite cart is less than $120 (Technicraft 4000) on a $300 Thorens.
It just happens to be a sleeper cartridge I fell in with.
Oldguy8 has a good point too about alignment and I will add VTA and compliance matching along with that.
Personally, I think all components are equally important to the perfect setup.
I'm using Thorens and AR currently.
But, just because a cartridge is expensive doesn't mean it's a superior cart.
My current favorite cart is less than $120 (Technicraft 4000) on a $300 Thorens.
It just happens to be a sleeper cartridge I fell in with.
Oldguy8 has a good point too about alignment and I will add VTA and compliance matching along with that.
Personally, I think all components are equally important to the perfect setup.
Yep, I used to buy all sorts of tables, well still do, but until I started to get better cartridges I was always looking to replace them searching for a sound. When I got better cartridges because my tables started to hit high end, I tried them on much lesser decks. I found out then the cart and staging was the bang for the buck. But don't get me wrong, high end tables also add a lot to the system performance. But if your only able to buy sub $1500-$2000 tables and your trying to improve SQ from a $800 total cost table, look to the cartridge.
MRL_Audio
RIP 2022
Ah, but your vagueness could have included the "system" as a whole, where I narrowed it down to table and cartridge lol.
Now I am confused as to what you communicating here. 1st quote says "synergy of the whole". 2nd ""system" as a whole". So is it just the cartridge and the table or is it the cartridge, table, wiring, headshell, isolation, phono inter-connects, phono pre, etc. There's a lot more to the equation than the table and cartridge. Just sayin...
Just bustin your chops lol.