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CARY 2A3 CATASTROPHE

bimasta

Addicted Member
I messed up my Cary 2A3 amp. Hoping for some help. It’s not the Cary 2A3 SET — it’s stereo, push-pull, 15WRMS — and it’s not the later Cary 2A3 Integrated. It’s the first amp Cary made, and it put them on the map: it got the small unknown company nationwide distribution. This is the one:

cary-cad-2a3-fond-degrade-copyright-1.jpg

I’d lived in Africa for 10 years. When I moved back to NYC in 1990, I went shopping for a system. I was looking at all the high-end separates — but every dealer told me “If you want the best amp in the store, get that one”, and pointed to the little Cary. It was about $2200, and their other amps sold for 2-to-5 times as much (Audio Research, CJ, Levinson, Krell, Spectral etc). They were cutting their own profit, but doing me a big favor re beauty.

Like some of you, I collect good components, can’t help myself. And I rotate them in and out of the system. It’s fun. For a decade, every musician friend told me “Sell every other amp you have. That little one is the best by far.”

One day a speaker wire came loose at the output terminal. The Cary was in a narrow space; if I reached my arm to the back of chassis, I might push against one of the output tubes and damage it (they’re big and vulnerable, with no cage, as the pic shows). So I took the tube out to be safe (amp off, of course.) I fixed the speaker wire and put the tube back in. I switched back on — and that tube went Fourth of July, a zillion sparks zinging inside the bottle and the anode red-hot. I switched off fast — but those capacitors discharged slowly and the lightshow went on for 20 seconds as I watched in helpless horror.

I put the tube in WRONG (the one on the left). The 2A3 has 4 pins, and no lug to prevent incorrect insertion. The 4 pins have slightly different thickness to avoid this, but the difference is so slight that all the pins fit into any hole in the base, don’t even have to force it.

I rotated tube clockwise 90° WRONG — maybe that’s a clue? Since then, it’s just been sitting, silently begging “Fix me...fix me....”

Do any of you tube wizards have an idea what I damaged? Hopefully something simple like a cap or resistor, which I can replace? I’d like to fix it myself, not just to save $, but because I’m the guilty party and I’d like to clear my conscience. There’s no visible damage inside (no charred ruins) but I can send photos if it helps.

PROBLEM: No schematics. Don’t exist. Cary has no documentation at all. I spoke to Dennis Had years ago, and he said almost every version of that amp was different. For example, mine has 2 toggle switches near the back; I asked what for. He said “Could be to reduce negative feedback. Or to increase negative feedback. Or to reverse phase. Or to mute the ouputs. Or something else. We just put those switches in and played around. We never settled on a reason for them.”

If you can help, please, my gratitude in advance...
 
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A picture of the insides would be helpful. You should start by testing the tubes Do you have a DMM? A dim bulb tester would also be helpful(and cheap to make)
 
Hmmm, I have an 811 amp, 4 pin tubes and the pins can't fit in the wrong holes... without a schematic, posting clear pictures would be a help... I think I would start by removing the tubes and comparing voltages side to side to look for any differences... maybe just the tube took the brunt of the damage...
 
Depending which way it rotated, it would connect the grid circuit to the heater circuit, or the plate circuit to the plate circuit. Since it went full spark show, I'll go with plate supply to heater. Basically you put a couple hundred volts across the 2.5 volt heater.

I've actually kind-of done this before under slightly different conditions. The tube was wasted but thats all. I have a suspicion you'll have the same result. Possible you roasted a cathode resistor too, the filament is the cathode on the 2A3, so there is some tie between that circuit and ground. I would expect any dead resistors to be fairly obviously torched underneath.


If the sockets are lousy or if the tube pins are not made quite right, you can certainly rotate them. I suspect they're using new made Chinese sockets, which just are not amazing. The old ones you'd have to just about hammer the tube in there to make it go wrong.
 
Thanks all. I'll take pictures tomorrow (daylight).

Making things even more difficult, I have no test gear other than a (cheap) multimeter, and my knowledge of circuitry is minimal.
I suspect they're using new made Chinese sockets, which just are not amazing.
The bases are ceramic, the original 2A3 tubes were Chinese Shuguang — Dennis H said they were the only 2A3s available at the time. I later compared them to EH and old RCAs (used but tested strong). The Shuguangs were pretty good. One of the EH lost vacuum in a week and turned white — the eekbay dealer wouldn't replace it.
 
Bimasta,

I feel for you; would seem that you have to send your amp some distance to have it fixed properly.

If I may be honest, what you say is certainly no recommendation for Cary. "Putting switches in and playing around ..." Oh boy ....
 
Ask Dennis Had if you can send it to him for repair? He sells things on ebay all the time, I.D. radioman731
Good idea — but I'm lucky, Peter. I live in LA, a friend is a Cary dealer, does his own servicing, and he said he can fix it for me. No shipping, a "friendly" discount — I'll go to him if I can't fix it myself.
Bimasta, I feel for you; would seem that you have to send your amp some distance to have it fixed properly. If I may be honest, what you say is certainly no recommendation for Cary. "Putting switches in and playing around ..." Oh boy ....
Thanks Audiovet, empathy always helps — nobody yet has dissed me for screwing up. I won't have to send it away, as I mentioned above. As for what it says about Cary, it was 25 years ago, their first prototype, working in a garage. His "explanation" of those switches stunned me, but considering how great that prototype is, and how the company progressed, I cut him lots of slack for the youthful indiscretions. (I assume they don't have random switches these days.)

More relevant about Cary, when I had the problem I called them. Daily. No one would ever take my calls. Voicemails and emails were never returned. This arrogance continued for 2 weeks. I called my dealer friend (and I didn't even buy the amp from him, so he had no obligation). He called Had and cussed him out, and Had called me within a minute. Talked for an hour. Never told me what to do to fix it, just to send it to him — and he'd give me a whopping 10% discount.

I'm in the movie business (writer). It's famous for huge egos. It's got nothing on high-end audio.
 
Sounds exactly like what an engineer would do, especially early in a company's history. Ditto, Dennis Had is a brilliant tube amp designer. What a loss that he is not at Cary anymore.

Yes, but he's back to building some of the nicest sounding SET's out there. He is actually doing the builds himself. He continues to tweak and tinker with no two builds exactly the same.
 
Good idea — but I'm lucky, Peter. I live in LA, a friend is a Cary dealer, does his own servicing, and he said he can fix it for me. No shipping, a "friendly" discount — I'll go to him if I can't fix it myself.
.... .

Glad you have a good local option.
 
I did something like this last year. I rotated an octal power tube with a broken lug. Got it turned off almost immediately. The only damage was a fried cathode resistor, which was blackened.
 
Any decent tech who is familiar with tube equipment should be able to fix this.

If you are comfortable to remove the bottom cover and take a photo, people on the forum can guide you to take some voltage measurements and see if it's okay to plug in new tubes and try again.

In any case, such an amplifier is inherently quite simple, and it shouldn't require a major effort to get it going.
 
Nice looking amp, I always wanted to listen to a PP DHT amp. I have two of Dennis Hads creations from his Cary days when they sold kits under Audio Electronic Supply, the SE-1 300B amp and his early Superamp. Both sound wonderful and both have been rock solid dependable. Maybe when your amp is repaired it would be a good time to freshen up some of the electrolytics.
 
The bases are ceramic, the original 2A3 tubes were Chinese Shuguang

That wasn't really a comment on the quality of the tube so much as the quality of the socket and the base. No keys, so it relies purely on the pin size to prevent it being plugged in wrong. If the fit is wrong somewhere accidents happen.

I suspect you won't get much noise about this from most of us because somewhere along the line, we've all probably done something similar. If you've never made a mistake in life, you probably haven't ever done much :)
 
he's back to building some of the nicest sounding SET's out there.
I saw a couple of his amps on freakbay. They were based on the simple old Magnavox EL84 SE amp. I have one, stock, from a thrift shop. Ravishing sound. I was afraid to use it more than a couple hours, until I do the preventive medicine. Sad to think how many of these beauties ended up in landfills.

Sorry for the digression, but this is my best (worst) imbecilic waste story. At a thrift shop in LA, I saw two JBL 075 bullet tweeters for $5 each — grabbed them of course. They came in the day before, I was amazed they were still there. Then I saw an LE15A woofer. I asked the manager if there was a second. "Yeah, but I poked a hole in it when I took it out of the cabinet." "I'll fix it! Where is it?" "In the dumpster out back." I ran to the dumpster — too late, Sanitation had already emptied it.

I asked the manager a few more questions, like what did the cabinets look like — and he said "There was only one, way too big to keep in the store..." As he described it to me, I realized the sickening truth...

He threw out a Paragon.

And the garbage truck hydraulics crushed it so smithereens.
 
As to the reality of the damage to your amplifier from the socket mishap, with the fireworks display you describe, it would certainly seem that the tube was inserted so as to connect the heater across the high voltage plate terminal and one of the heater terminals -- as Gadget has previously suggested. Inserting the tube 90 degrees in the other direction just as likely would not produce any light show at all. So running with the former (worst case) scenario, the damage will at least include a new tube that you know you'll need, but could also include a new OPT as well if its primary winding was the weak link in the alternate current path set up when the tube was inserted incorrectly. OPTs can pass a lot of current without failure, but the heater of a 2A3 is a 2.5A device, so it can flow a lot of current.

If you have a DVM, you could test the transformer yourself by checking the continuity of the OPT winding serving the tube that became a re-purposed bottle rocket. If the continuity is still there (and similar in reading to the winding serving the remaining good tube in that channel), then there is a very good chance you can simply replace the tube, re-bias the amplifier as required, and you're on your way. I'd give it better than even odds that is the case that you'll find for two reasons:

1. Since the amplifier was turned on with the tube inserted wrong, the B+ supply (once the rectifier tubes warmed up) was trying to produce a current level that it normally never could -- and it was also trying to charge its filter capacitors at the same time as well, both of which place a huge load on the B+ supply. And, rectifier tubes cannot pass the same peak currents that SS rectifiers can. The point is, the B+ supply never did initially get "up to speed" -- which is surely a good thing in this case, acting to minimize the current flow possible through the alternate circuit created with the tube inserted wrong, and therefore damage to the OPT.

2. If the primary winding in the OPT did open up (burn open), then the light show would have ceased immediately. Since you indicate that the show went on until the caps discharged, that suggests that the OPT winding was not compromised.

Again, all of this suggests that you might just be able to insert a new tube and call it a day. Besides the tube and the transformer, there is little else that would likely be damaged from the unfortunate incident.

Good luck with it!

Dave
 
Sounds exactly like what an engineer would do, especially early in a company's history. Ditto, Dennis Had is a brilliant tube amp designer. What a loss that he is not at Cary anymore.

Actually it's Cary's loss, not yours. He is still building amps, and not because it's a business that has to be fed, but because he still loves what he is doing. You can check out what he is up to in these two threads....

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/inspire-stereo-tube-amplifier-by-dennis-had.496951/

Warning: This thread is 330+ pages long....

https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=24170


Good idea — but I'm lucky, Peter. I live in LA, a friend is a Cary dealer, does his own servicing, and he said he can fix it for me. No shipping, a "friendly" discount — I'll go to him if I can't fix it myself.

Thanks Audiovet, empathy always helps — nobody yet has dissed me for screwing up. I won't have to send it away, as I mentioned above. As for what it says about Cary, it was 25 years ago, their first prototype, working in a garage. His "explanation" of those switches stunned me, but considering how great that prototype is, and how the company progressed, I cut him lots of slack for the youthful indiscretions. (I assume they don't have random switches these days.)

More relevant about Cary, when I had the problem I called them. Daily. No one would ever take my calls. Voicemails and emails were never returned. This arrogance continued for 2 weeks. I called my dealer friend (and I didn't even buy the amp from him, so he had no obligation). He called Had and cussed him out, and Had called me within a minute. Talked for an hour. Never told me what to do to fix it, just to send it to him — and he'd give me a whopping 10% discount.

I'm in the movie business (writer). It's famous for huge egos. It's got nothing on high-end audio.

Dennis still doesn't build any two amps the same, and he never publishes schematics or instruction manuals. And yes, there are still occasional odd switches, for example on a 45 SET amp that runs an 83 rectifier, he has a main power switch that turns the amp on along with the filaments, and a secondary high voltage switch you turn on once the mercury in the 83 vaporizes. Even then Cary wasn't known as a customer friendly company and since Dennis has left the company, it won't have gotten any better. However, he was the creative force and designer behind the gear while someone else ran the company. That someone else now owns Cary.

And there's no way for Dennis to know what exact design you have in your amp. (see above) He doesn't give advice on repairs over the phone, since he has no control over your actual repair, nor can he judge your potential for killing yourself. I don't know about the Cary days, but these days he does all the upgrades and repairs on his Inspire line of amps himself.
 
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