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Cerwin Vega Model 26 Woofer Issue

Oops that's what I get for looking at the 1994 EIA code list, and not checking 1961. Heppner is indeed 575 and was probably gone or merged by '94. Or just left off the list for some reason.

I didn't think 7206 would be a date code because you said you got them from CV in 1980 and I assumed the stock would be newer than that.

Did you say the Heppners are stamped basket woofers? Whereas the 121 was cast. That's one feature right there suggesting the 121 was better built. HOWEVER, that doesn't say anything about its linearity, distortion, power handling, sensitivity, or frequency response range. In the right cabinet it may outperform the original. But it sounds like it is not quite the same in THIS cabinet with this crossover and other drivers.
 
I purchaed the speakers "new" in 1977. Don't know how longthey sat at the store before I bought them. I pulled the woofers around 1981 and sent them back to CV in California to have the foam surrounds repaired under warranty. I don't remember if I sent them cast aluminum and got stamped steel back, but I have stamped steel now. I am trying to decide if these are worth rebuilding properly or if I should just wait for some L121-4 to come along and have Alan rebuild those instead. If they are in fact Heppner, at least I know they could have been original to this model. I do remember they sounded much better before CV repaired them. After the repair, I could never get them to sound good to me, bass was either too boomy or not present enough. So, since I can't seem to get the linearity, distortion, power handling, sensitivity, or frequency response range, etc on either speaker, it's a tough decision right now.
 
Ah, OK. I assumed from the earlier post that they replaced your woofers with something different. If that model is supposed to have 121's then it appears so but what do I know about 70s CVs? Nuttin, boss!

It also sounded like maybe they got the wrong surrounds on them, if they didn't really fit right.
 
Yes, I,ve spent hours now trying to find an image of a Rola or Heppner or anything with this stamped frame that has this particular ceramic magnet on it, and I can't find one. These may have been custom for Cerwin Vega???? Alan commented on how he thought the magnet adhesive looked unusual. I still have to decide if I should have these repaired or look for the L121-4 to have repaired. I just can't find any specs on these.
 

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Now I see what you mean about the spider. So what would 'repair' entail - full recone of both so the cone fits the spider better? Might be as hard to get a correct cone for something this old as it was for the 121.

Come to think of it, there may be a reason the spider looks like that. If this speaker was reconed - and we don't know that it was, it may be original, and it is a few years older than the date you bought it - if it was reconed, is it possible the voice coil former was long enough that they hitched it forward a bit so as not to have it bottoming out in the rear?

I think I'd try to see if the broken woofer you have can be reconed close to or matching the original, so the speakers are working, then keep looking for 121s.
 
toxcrusadr said:
Now I see what you mean about the spider. So what would 'repair' entail - full recone of both so the cone fits the spider better? Might be as hard to get a correct cone for something this old as it was for the 121.

Come to think of it, there may be a reason the spider looks like that. If this speaker was reconed - and we don't know that it was, it may be original, and it is a few years older than the date you bought it - if it was reconed, is it possible the voice coil former was long enough that they hitched it forward a bit so as not to have it bottoming out in the rear?

I think I'd try to see if the broken woofer you have can be reconed close to or matching the original, so the speakers are working, then keep looking for 121s.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I leaning toward that solution, the question is can I get the Heppners rebuilt to sound like they need to in these cabs. I think the parts for L121 are more readily available and/or easier to identify. For now my knee jerk reaction was to order a set of CV WOFH12209. Not sure if I will try one of them first or just leave the boxes sealed and sell them as new on CL. I Cant get much info on those, either, so I'm not sure if they are correct for my cabs or if the cab is too small, they supposedly are 12" replacements for CV XLS12 or similar, lower sensitivity than I like and 6 ohm
 
Where on the planet are you located, approximately? There might be someone not far away with driver tester gadgetry.
 
I'm just outside Detroit. The bad speaker went in to Alan for a rebuild today. When we took it apart, he commented that the coil was much higher than it should have been and there was a loose winding that was probably the buzzing I heard at low volumes. The remaining good speaker shows about 7 ohms, so I am having this rebuilt as an 8 ohm to match.
Is this why Cerwin Vega labels these as 4-8 ohm cabs on the newer backplate and in the brochure? They used L121-4 4 ohm or Heppner 8 ohm speakers? I haven't seen a difference in the crossovers yet between the 4 ohm and 8 ohm CV 26 versions. I do notice there were 2 different looking crossover backplates on this model from the crazy 70's.
 
The impedance rating on speakers is usually nominal since it varies across the entire frequency spectrum. It may climb into the tens of ohms at certain frequencies, and may dip below the rating somewhere. An 8 ohm speaker may have somewhere that it dips to 6 for example. There is no standard for this as far as I know, like there is with power output ratings (several standards in fact, yet some manufacturers don't follow any of them). As for what CV meant by "4-8 ohms" it is anyone's guess. I would probably assume that there is at least a region where it is close enough to 4 that they didn't want to call it an 8 ohm speaker, rather than that there were two versions. I would avoid powering such a speaker with an amp that was not happy with or rated for 4 ohm loads. But most could probably handle it fine.
 
toxcrusadr said:
The impedance rating on speakers is usually nominal since it varies across the entire frequency spectrum. It may climb into the tens of ohms at certain frequencies, and may dip below the rating somewhere. An 8 ohm speaker may have somewhere that it dips to 6 for example. There is no standard for this as far as I know, like there is with power output ratings (several standards in fact, yet some manufacturers don't follow any of them). As for what CV meant by "4-8 ohms" it is anyone's guess. I would probably assume that there is at least a region where it is close enough to 4 that they didn't want to call it an 8 ohm speaker, rather than that there were two versions. I would avoid powering such a speaker with an amp that was not happy with or rated for 4 ohm loads. But most could probably handle it fine.
Click to expand...

Yes, thanks, I understand impedance varies. From what I can piece together so far, they either put CV121-4 12" that were 4 ohm, or what they called "Heppner 2723" 12" that were 8ohm, and I've seen both 6 and 4 spoke baskets used for their Heppners (there's a set of 2723 on "the Bay" now for Model 24 with 4 spokes), don't know if the Model 24 used the 2723 and Model 26 had something different (mine have 6 spokes and CV told me THEY were 2723), or if they farmed out the specs to their "suppliers" and just put in what they got back (I'm thinking that was the case because the magnets can look different speaker to speaker with the same model #,too). Maybe that's why they say 4-8ohms on the crossover backplate, so they could put in either? Anyway, it doesn't matter, I guess, and back then the customers just wanted to hear their rock and roll as loud as they could afford to and nobody knew any better or probably cared one way or the other about speaker impedance or construction (damn babyboomers)..
I've always only used 2 different amps to drive these. One is a Pioneer 1010 that I bought new with the speakers, and the other is a Mcintosh MA5100 that I picked up for $20 at a garage sale (wow, is all my stuff from the 70's??). I would think both should be a good match to these cabs and should be fine with the impedance variations. And actually, when I measured the resistance on the woofers out of the cab, it was 6ohm, which is still makes it an 8ohm speaker, right? Anyhow, Spiral can rebuild the bad Heppner back to 8ohms for me (which will actually read between 6 and 7)and at least I will be able to have it sound like original again.Then I want to post for a set of used L121-4 to rebuild and eventually try those in the cabs and use the best sounding set.
I know, why waste all this time on a set of crummy Model 26 Cerwin Vega???? Nostalgia, I guess, and I could make it my full time job buying and trying speakers looking for the set that sounded "just right", and that ain't gonna happen.
 
I've had mine since the early 70s. Re-foamed once, due again in the not too distant future. They have always been driven with a MC 250 that Terry D. told me still gives me 65 nice watts.
 
cimchazz1 said:
Yes, I,ve spent hours now trying to find an image of a Rola or Heppner or anything with this stamped frame that has this particular ceramic magnet on it, and I can't find one. These may have been custom for Cerwin Vega???? Alan commented on how he thought the magnet adhesive looked unusual. I still have to decide if I should have these repaired or look for the L121-4 to have repaired. I just can't find any specs on these.
Click to expand...

That's the wrong spider in the photo. The stamped steel CV woofers take a taller cupped spider. Notice how it looks to be "pulled up" instead of flat. That's because the surround is pulling up on it and actually working against it limiting the maxQ and reducing resonance.
 
Skywatcher said:
That's the wrong spider in the photo. The stamped steel CV woofers take a taller cupped spider. Notice how it looks to be "pulled up" instead of flat. That's because the surround is pulling up on it and actually working against it limiting the maxQ and reducing resonance.
Click to expand...
Thanks, there was a lot wrong with it. I watched him cut it apart. He told me the coil was only about 1/8" into the magnet . I could tell the speaker didn't float right. What a nightmare. Any idea why the 8ohm Heppner was an alternate speaker in these cabs, or are those supposed to be 4 ohm also? I went with 8 so it would match the working one, didn't want to pay to rebuild both to match and then not like them.
 
cimchazz1 said:
Yes, thanks, I understand impedance varies. From what I can piece together so far, they either put CV121-4 12" that were 4 ohm, or what they called "Heppner 2723" 12" that were 8ohm, and I've seen both 6 and 4 spoke baskets used for their Heppners (there's a set of 2723 on "the Bay" now for Model 24 with 4 spokes), don't know if the Model 24 used the 2723 and Model 26 had something different (mine have 6 spokes and CV told me THEY were 2723), or if they farmed out the specs to their "suppliers" and just put in what they got back (I'm thinking that was the case because the magnets can look different speaker to speaker with the same model #,too). Maybe that's why they say 4-8ohms on the crossover backplate, so they could put in either? Anyway, it doesn't matter, I guess, and back then the customers just wanted to hear their rock and roll as loud as they could afford to and nobody knew any better or probably cared one way or the other about speaker impedance or construction (damn babyboomers)..
I've always only used 2 different amps to drive these. One is a Pioneer 1010 that I bought new with the speakers, and the other is a Mcintosh MA5100 that I picked up for $20 at a garage sale (wow, is all my stuff from the 70's??). I would think both should be a good match to these cabs and should be fine with the impedance variations. And actually, when I measured the resistance on the woofers out of the cab, it was 6ohm, which is still makes it an 8ohm speaker, right? Anyhow, Spiral can rebuild the bad Heppner back to 8ohms for me (which will actually read between 6 and 7)and at least I will be able to have it sound like original again.Then I want to post for a set of used L121-4 to rebuild and eventually try those in the cabs and use the best sounding set.
I know, why waste all this time on a set of crummy Model 26 Cerwin Vega???? Nostalgia, I guess, and I could make it my full time job buying and trying speakers looking for the set that sounded "just right", and that ain't gonna happen.
Click to expand...

CV speakers can sound awesome when coupled with the right system. This is true for all make/model speakers. If your system with speakers has synergy, then they will be sweet. If not, they'll be "meh to EEK! and everything in between. The label being "4 to 8 ohm" is just a marketing gimmick (used by many) but will typically operate safely with either an 4 or 8 ohm amplifier. The truth is, speakers have an impedance curve dependent on frequency (mainly) that will affect not only how they sound, but will affect the current draw at any given frequency range. Too low an impedance can drop to sub-2 ohm at very low frequencies and suck the life right out of an output transistor releasing the "magic smoke". The impedance of, say a woofer measuring a DCR of 3.6 Ohms (a typical 4 ohm woofer) isn't as important as what the overall impedance is at the speaker terminals. The crossovers have a *lot* to do with the overall impedance of a speaker system. More so when inductor coils are used in the crossovers that will "set" the overall impedance..
 
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