Classical music listening: What (if anything) makes it different?

[Capitol C]

I read and enjoy a lot of Audiokarma, and learn a lot about areas of music and technology that I haven’t experienced. But I listen mostly to classical music, and was wondering if classical music listeners have requirements for their systems that are different from the mainstream? For example, classical music has a very wide dynamic range, ensembles vary in size from solo music to symphony with chorus, and the music is acoustic and (ideally) performed in carefully designed halls, so there is a right way for it to sound.

Just to be clear, I’m not saying that classical is better than other music, or that the properties are unique—folk and jazz can be acoustic, and rock can challenge systems dynamically. What I’m curious about, though, is what kind of things classical listeners look for, what they like and don’t like, where they are on the objective vs subjective spectrum, what formats they prefer, what music they use to audition equipment, etc.

 

[RichPA]

That's a lot of questions, but I'll take a shot. I'd say that about a third of my listening is classical. While I value the same things about sound quality in all kinds of music, I think that deep bass is more important in orchestral music than in most rock and jazz, and that the ability of a system to let you "hear into" the music (something I associate with detail, total lack of noise, and good soundstaging) may be more important as well. I don't really like the idea of an "objective vs. subjective spectrum," but I do value objectively good performance - I love my Benchmark components, which have outstanding measured performance. On the other hand, I'm open-minded about cables, etc.

My listening is all digital - mostly CDs ripped to a server, but also some streaming from Deezer and Qobuz.

 

[jdmccall]

I don't have a large collection of classical music (practically all of what I do have is on CD), but I do listen to it more than I used to. Maybe 10% of my listening? As such, any special system requirements for classical music listening tend to take a back burner to what works best with the other 90%. The same thing applies to speaker auditions. I tend to use well-recorded rock and acoustic pop for that; mainly because of familiarity with and affection for the music.

In my main system I have two pairs of speakers: Bose 901's and JBL Studio 590's. I much prefer the Bose for classical music as it gives a much more life-size presentation of space and images. That's about the only concession I make for classical listening.

As for the objectivist/subjectivist debates, I ride the fence a bit. I ultimately follow my ears when choosing speakers. With electronics, I place more importance on the numbers and often buy without listening.

 

[Powertech]

Ah, the old dynamic range debate.
Question. Does anyone take the view of 'I only listen to rock music so I'll get a system with low dynamic range because I don't need anything better'?
Surely a good quality system should have the ability to reproduce the dynamic range of any music signal presented to it.

 

[JoeESP9]

IME a system that does a good job reproducing orchestral music does a pretty good job on everything else.

 

[quiet]

I find it the easiest to get to sound good in the room, but the hardest to get to sound like it did in the hall. And the speakers had better be up to the job or lot's will be missing on both ends. I don't find the general dynamics overall to be a challenge, just the extension.
I have a lot of source (direct to tape) reel music from 50s, 60s and 70s, seems to be the best source here at home. Better than LP and stream. Don't have CD's.
So for me it's speakers and source.

 

[just dave]

The biggest improvement in listening to classical music came when I heard it in a 5.1 surround mix.

 

[Capitol C]

Ah, the old dynamic range debate.
Question. Does anyone take the view of 'I only listen to rock music so I'll get a system with low dynamic range because I don't need anything better'?
Surely a good quality system should have the ability to reproduce the dynamic range of any music signal presented to it.

Not wanting to start a debate! I also think that a system that will handle classical music well should be good for other types of music, but my experience is limited. Certainly the non-classical things I have, and the music my kids like, sound good on my systems. One difference, though, is that a live rock concert is certainly different from a live symphony. In the first, it seems to me what is going on is a collective emotional response where volume and rhythm get everyone going--a very cool thing. Classical concerts are more individual, but it is true that when the performance is really working, everyone is aware of their neighbors excitement.

 

[Capitol C]

That's a lot of questions, but I'll take a shot. I'd say that about a third of my listening is classical. While I value the same things about sound quality in all kinds of music, I think that deep bass is more important in orchestral music than in most rock and jazz, and that the ability of a system to let you "hear into" the music (something I associate with detail, total lack of noise, and good soundstaging) may be more important as well. I don't really like the idea of an "objective vs. subjective spectrum," but I do value objectively good performance - I love my Benchmark components, which have outstanding measured performance. On the other hand, I'm open-minded about cables, etc.

My listening is all digital - mostly CDs ripped to a server, but also some streaming from Deezer and Qobuz.

I do the same with electronics vs. speakers. I have a to each his own attitude towards cables, although personally I'm using good-quality basic interconnects between components and zip cord to the speakers. I don't want to get distracted by the cable debate, or do amps with similar specs sound the same or not, but I am interested in classical listeners opinions on the topics.

 

[E-Stat]

For example, classical music has a very wide dynamic range, ensembles vary in size from solo music to symphony with chorus, and the music is acoustic and (ideally) performed in carefully designed halls, so there is a right way for it to sound.

You are describing the original premise behind both the name and the criteria used for equipment reviews by The Absolute Sound in the 70s. The sound of acoustic instruments (of all kinds) in an unamplified space. Wifey playing her baby grand in the living room.

I enjoy a wide range of music and my mentors listened almost exclusively to classical music so over time that became part of my preference as well. While I agree with Joe's overall sentiment, I still believe that systems are ultimately optimized either for acoustical music or amplified. Especially at the low end. Which may be a controversial opinion. In my experience hearing a wide range of acoustical instruments with first and second octave bass response (pipe organ, bass drums of different types, string bass), none of them ever *punch* you in the chest. They pressurize the room or the air around them and you feel the weight of the sound wave waft past you. Think of a concert drum "thwack". You first hear the strike followed by the pressure wave. That is what I seek the most.

There is a wide range of amplified music, however, in which the speakers used for output become an instrument in the way they influence the sound quality. When you go to a rock concert or discotheque, the sound reinforcement speakers are as much a part of the character of what you hear as the instruments are being played. They take on their own reality apart from the guitar, bass, synthesizer, etc. Reproducing that particular live experience requires a semblance of those speakers being used. Dance clubs can be fun.

The full range stats in the music room are virtually flat to 30 hz and to these ears convey that weight convincingly and coherently in my treated room. They do not, however, possess that *punch* you can only get with monopole cone woofers. Mind you, I have a lot of music that is best experienced in such an environment. Even the vintage Advents in the garage do some amplified music better at the bottom given their drivers. So I think there are two different worlds of bass as defined by their source.

Wide dynamic range is truly a characteristic of classical music, but most often stressed at the FFF end of the scale. Impacts from steep but brief high level wavefronts like the opening track from the Rogue One soundtrack seen below can sure be fun (and raise the hair on your arms), but I aver the greatest beauty of wide dynamic range lies at the PPP end of the scale. A really superb system optimized for classical is able to resolve detail at a whisper better than others. I was very surprised that the preamp I use currently does a much better job at low levels than its otherwise very fine predecessor.

Since many classical or acoustical instruments are recorded using minimal miking techniques, there is also a true opportunity to get convincing soundstaging. The illusion of being in a three dimensional space. And one that is not necessarily associated with razor sharp imaging where you can dissect the location of every instrument like a scalpel. That's not what I hear when I attend the symphony. Rather, the walls disappear and you hear the character and natural ambience of the space in which the music is played. I had the good fortune of playing a minor role in an early Telarc recording of the ASO where that was captured.

Just my two cents.

 

[robert_kc]

Capitol C: I’m glad to hear from another classical music fan. This is a good topic for my post number 1,000.

I’ve organized my opinions according to your questions for classical music fans:

“Requirements for their systems that are different from the mainstream?”

“Is there a right way for it to sound? What kind of things classical listeners look for, what they like and don’t like?”

“Where they are on the objective vs subjective spectrum.”

“What formats do they prefer?”

“What music do they use to audition equipment?”​

Requirements for their systems that are different from the mainstream?

Each person must define their unique goals for their hi-fi system and/or home theater system. Because I enjoying watching as well as listening to recordings of classical orchestral concerts, and I watch/listen to recordings of opera, and I occasionally watch/listen to recordings of ballet - and I enjoy surround-sound - I make no distinction between a “hi-fi” system and a “home theater” system.

I attend more than 20 live world-class classical concerts each year, including season tickets to the symphony and opera, plus I attend several performances of chamber music each year.

The music I listen to (classical) therefore has a clear benchmark for how the music “should” sound – i.e., the live performance. When I attend the symphony and opera, I experience wonderful 100% natural sound. No electronics are used when the musicians create the performance in the symphony hall or opera house – no sound reinforcement system – no mixing board or sound board – no software plug-ins creating sounds or altering sound - etc. I’ll clarify what I mean:

Classical Symphonic Music vs. Pop Musicians Performing with Orchestra vs. Outdoor Performances

My local symphony orchestra performs a Classical Series, plus a number of “pop concerts”, and a few outdoor concerts.

For the Classical Series – which involves classical music performed live in the symphony hall, a sound reinforcement system is NOT used. I’ve confirmed with the symphony’s Executive Director that the microphones that can be seen hanging above the stage are used solely for recording, NOT for amplifying the sound in the symphony hall. My local symphony hall has world-class acoustics, and the natural sound is amazing.

OTOH, when pop music is performed in the same hall, electronics are often used. An example is when a pop singer uses a microphone to sing. And for some pop concerts, electric guitars, electronic organs, etc. are sometimes used.

And, of course, on the rare occasion when the symphony performs an outdoor concert (e.g., outdoor Memorial Day concert), then of course a sound reinforcement system must be used.


Opera vs. Musicals

IMO one of the hallmarks of opera is that the singers do NOT use microphones. And the orchestra does NOT use a sound reinforcement system. No electronics are involved when an opera is performed in my local opera house. (I have confirmed this with management.)

OTOH, musicals (vs. opera) typically involve singers using microphones.

And, of course, on the rare occasion when an opera singer performs the National Anthem at the baseball park, then they must sing into a microphone.


Chamber Music

IME chamber music performances generally do not involve a sound reinforcement system. (I’ve been to one concert by a string quartet that used sound reinforcement because the venue had poor acoustics. I won’t attend another concert at that venue.)​

For classical music, “the way the music is intended to be heard” is the live performance.

Obviously, my memory of live classical concerts isn’t perfect, but I’ve heard enough large-scale orchestras, operas, and small-scale chamber groups perform without a sound reinforcement system that I’m confident that I can recognize natural sound reasonably well. (And my memory is refreshed more than 20 times every year by virtue of attending live classical performances.)

For those of us who regularly attend live classical concerts, we have a pretty good memory of what a violin should sound like – independent of whether we were at a particular recording session. We know how a trumpet sounds. We know how an oboe sounds. We know how a double bass sounds. Some of these natural instruments have complex sounds – and when many such instruments play together in an orchestra – the sound is extremely complex – and we know how that sounds when they’re performing live with no sound reinforcement system. (Recognizing some variance due to the acoustics of the venue, and the listener’s seat location.)

For classical music performed in its intended venue, the artists are the composer, the conductor, and the musicians - and IMO the “work of art” was the live performance. I’m using the term “work of art” in terms of what represents a benchmark for the sound quality of the recording when played via a home hi-fi system, not in terms of Intellectual Property law. The same might be true of other genres that involve natural music performed live, such as some big-band, some jazz, some folk, etc. I’m not knowledgeable about these genres, so I can’t say. (OTOH, reportedly some pop music is completely different – particularly if there never was a live performance and electronic sounds were cobbled together by recording engineers – in which case the artists arguably are the producer and engineers and the “work of art” is the recording. Other than the few people who were listening to the studio monitors when such a pop music recording was created, how would anyone else know how such an electronically created recording “should” sound? )

IMO, recordings and hi-fi gear are like every other creation of mankind – i.e., imperfect. IME recorded music reproduced in the home cannot perfectly recreate the live experience. I want the inevitable imperfections in the sound from my home-hi-fi to sound pleasant vs. unpleasant.

One of my priorities for recorded music is for the timbre of the orchestra instruments to sound natural. This is why I generally prefer tube amps. And I like to achieve dynamic range that approaches the live concert experience for a large-scale orchestra. (Consider the contrast between the 4th and 5th movements of Mahler Symphony 2.) This is why I like large Klipsch speakers, and subwoofers.

I’ve heard some people say that the goal for classical music reproduced in the home is to create an “illusion” or “simulacrum” of the live performance – which I think are good descriptions.


Is there a right way for it to sound? What kind of things classical listeners look for, what they like and don’t like?

Different people have different sensitivities to different facets of sound quality, and that can influence their goals for their hi-fi system, and which trade-offs they’re willing to accept. Some people are sensitive to spatial presentation. Some are sensitive to the accurate timbre of orchestral instruments. I’ve heard people talk about the “rhythm” of a hi-fi system. Etc. Each consumer must listen with their own ears and form their own opinion about the sound quality of their hi-fi system.

As I said earlier, my goal is for classical music reproduced via my hi-fi systems to sound like what I remember hearing in the symphony hall or opera house – and I want any inevitable deviations to sound pleasant vs. unpleasant to my ears.

My biases are that I can’t tolerate poor audio quality. And, I don’t like overly “bright” sound. When the sound of my hi-fi systems inevitably deviates from “natural” sound, I want the sound to be pleasant, “warm”, and “rich”, vs. “dry”.

I’ve found that synergy between an amp and speakers is important. In each of my 5 hi-fi systems, the amps were paired with speakers based on my listening tests. And then I “tube rolled” each amp to optimize the audio quality.

I know from experience that certain recordings sound better on a particular one of my 5 hi-fi systems. For example, an operatic soprano can sing with tremendous power capable of filling an opera house with their natural voice (i.e., no PA system). Some tweeters strain to deliver concert hall volume levels for operatic sopranos. High-end Klipsch speakers’ horn-loaded high frequency drivers can deliver the operatic soprano voice with no hint of strain.

Moreover, I know from experience that certain amps pair well with certain recordings to deliver the illusion of the live concert hall experience. (For example, one of my favorite opera recordings sounds “lean”, and I know which tube amps give it a more natural sound to my ears.)

If room layout dictates that the main speakers must be relatively far apart, then a surround-sound system’s center channel can be helpful. (In classical recordings the rear channels mostly contain hall sound.) Subwoofers can help deliver the impact of large-scale orchestral music (e.g., double bass, bass drum, pipe organ).

For large-scale orchestral music, I generally prefer my 4.2 system in my basement, which can deliver a near-live-classical-concert-experience. Front, center, and left speakers are Klipsch RF-7 II. A single rear speaker is a Klipsch RF-7. Subwoofers: SVS SB16-Ultra, Klipsch R-115SW. These four tower speakers plus two subwoofers provide plenty of acoustical power in this average size listening room. (I sit approximately 10 feet from the speakers.) Collectively, they total four 1 ¾” titanium compression drivers mated to Tractrix horns, eight 10” woofers, one 15” powered subwoofer, and one 16” powered subwoofer

Source: Oppo UDP-205. The Oppo UDP-205 provides "bass management" - i.e., a built-in crossover, and a connection for a powered subwoofer. With Oppo's bass management, the low frequencies are off-loaded from the main amp and speakers, thereby facilitating greater overall dynamics.

IME, tube amps generally deliver the most natural sound with Klipsch speakers. Here's the tube amps that I have in my basement system: Scott 272 (EL34), Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO (single-ended-pentode (SEP) power amp currently equipped with 6L6GC), Scott 222C (7189), McIntosh MX110Z tuner/preamp, Fisher KX-200 (7591), Scott 296 (6L6GC), Pilot SA-260 (EL34), Scott LK150 (KT88). A patch panel allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp(s) I want, and F/F RCA cables enable me to connect an amp to the Oppo, and a power amp to the MX110Z (if I choose to have a pre-amp in the audio chain).

IME, the RF-7II can reproduce the natural sound of orchestral instruments, when driven by the right tube amps. I often use the Scott 296 to drive the front L&R speakers, and the Fisher KX-200 to drive the center and rear. Sometimes I like to change which amp I use, because each amp brings a unique set of trade-offs to the audio quality.

This system can deliver near-concert-hall dynamics and full frequency-range for large-scale classical music, and does a good job of reproducing the natural timber of orchestral instruments.

I regard my hi-fi systems as being “dialed in” when I completely forget about the equipment, and lose track of time, and become engrossed in the music, and I can listen for hours without “listener fatigue”.


Where they are on the objective vs subjective spectrum.

I rely on my ears to assess the sound quality of my hi-fi systems – not graphs that are based on a “calibrated” mic and some PC software. I point this out because some people are adamant that because a graph from their PC software shows that their system is “flat”, therefore they must be hearing what the producer “wanted them to hear”. My position: I don’t give a rat’s ass what the record producer wanted – for classical music they’re not the artist.

In other words, for me the audio quality of my hi-fi systems is subjective.

... to be continued ...

 

[robert_kc]

... continued ...


What formats do they prefer?

Classical music lovers sometimes must decide which is more important: performance quality, or audio quality of a recording.

Older recordings (including LPs) can deliver significant enjoyment, and are of course the only choice for historically significant performances.

I’m not a music scholar, and I’m not hyper-critical of a performance. However, I have no tolerance for poor audio quality. I therefore choose modern performances of classical music that were recorded in hi-res. (In contrast, some classical music fans are willing to tolerate less-than-state-of-the-art audio quality in order to enjoy what they regard as the best performance of a classical composition – which may have been recorded decades ago.)

A few vintage classical recordings IMO have acceptable audio quality. For example, I have a 1950s LP pressing of this recording that sounds surprisingly good. And IMO the SACD also sounds surprisingly good. The Mendelssohn Violin Concerto was recorded in 1959 on analog tape employing 3 channels (left, center, right), and the SACD delivers the original 3 channels. The Technical Notes for the SACD state: “In remastering these tapes, we kept the signal path as short as possible.” “No signal processing was necessary to ‘improve’ these extraordinary tapes.”

However - IME – these older recordings (whether in LP, CD or SACD format) pale in comparison to modern hi-res recordings when delivered in a modern hi-res format.

Modern high-resolution (“hi-res”) formats can deliver 3 benefits for classical music:

• Potentially superior audio quality by virtue of 24bit/192kHz or 24bit/96kHz PCM, or DSD, vs. CD’s 16bit/44.1kHz. (Provenance of a recording is critical – i.e., the best audio quality requires modern recordings that were recorded and mastered in hi-res – not ripped from CDs.)
• Surround-sound (e.g., 5.1).
• High-definition video, which is essential for visual art forms such as opera and ballet, and IMO very enjoyable for classical orchestral music. Moreover, hi-def video can be very useful by displaying an opera’s libretto (in one of several languages) on the HDTV screen.

For the classical music I love, there are many modern recordings where the live performance was captured and mastered in “hi-res” (i.e., 24bit/192kHz PCM, or DSD), and delivered in a “hi-res” format:

• My favorite is Blu-ray audio/video (featuring DTS-HD MA 5.0 (or 5.1) surround-sound). A few Ultra HD Blu-ray opera recordings are starting to become available.
• My second choice in formats are SACD and Pure Audio Blu-ray that feature surround-sound. (No video.)
• My third choice are “hi-res” 24bit/96kHz or 24bit/192kHz FLAC stereo downloads (e.g., HDTracks).

I feel fortunate because for the classical music I love, there are many modern recordings that remind me of being in the symphony hall or opera house where I heard natural music performed live.

Following are just a few examples of the countless modern classical recordings that are available in various hi-res formats:

Blu-ray and Ultra HD Blu-ray

Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos Danish NSO

Ludwig van Beethoven: Symphonies Nos. 1–9
Joaquín Rodrigo: Concierto de Aranjuez
Hector Berlioz: Symphonie fantastique, Op. 14
Richard Strauss: Eine Alpensinfonie (An Alpine Symphony), Op. 64, TrV 233​

Audio options:

· PCM Stereo
· DTS-HD MA 5.0

Video: 1080p

Excellent performances. State-of-the-art audio and video quality.

-----------------------------

Jean Sibelius: Complete Symphonies

Audio options:

· PCM Stereo
· DTS-HD MA 5.1

Video: 1080i

Excellent performances. State-of-the-art audio and video quality.

--------------------------

"Tchaikovsky, The Complete Symphonies".

Audio options:

· PCM Stereo
· DTS-HD MA 5.1

Excellent performances. State-of-the-art audio and video quality.


-----------------------

I also have Blu-ray audio/video box sets of symphonies by Brahms, Bruckner, Schumann, and Mahler.

Plus, several other classical concerts on Blu-ray.

IMO, classical concerts that feature soloists are particularly well suited for Blu-ray audio/video. I’ve seen Khatia Buniatishvili perform live, and I recommend this Blu-ray. (IMO, Khatia is very enjoyable to watch, as well as listen to.)

If you like film adaptations of opera, consider the following:

There are many Blu-ray recordings of live opera stage productions.

IMO concerts that feature excerpts from operas are enjoyable. Here's 2 examples that are available on Blu-ray:

Two examples of ballet on Blu-ray:

SACD and Pure Audio Blu-ray

There are countless modern classical SACD discs available that feature surround-sound. On Amazon, simply search for "classical sacd". I’ll make a shameless plug for one of my “hometown teams”, and recommend the following excellent SACD:

Pure Audio Blu-ray are not as common as SACD. Here’s an example of a Pure Audio Blu-ray that features 3 audio tracks: 5.1 DTS HD MA 24bit/192kHz, 7.1 DTS HD MA 24bit/96kHz, and 2.0 LPCM 24bit/192kHz:

Here’s another Pure Audio Blu-ray I own:

Hi-res Downloads

There are many hi-res downloads available for classical music. Here’s an example of a hi-res download available from HDTracks.com:

Again, these are just a few examples of classical recordings available in various “hi-res” formats. There are countless classical recordings available in hi-res formats, and almost all new classical recordings are offered in a hi-res format. There are numerous web sites that catalog hi-res recordings. Here’s a few:

https://www.hraudio.net/ lists some, but certainly not all hi-res recordings.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical
https://www.nativedsd.com/
http://store.acousticsounds.com/superhirez
https://concertsondvd.com/collections/blueray-concerts​

I use Oppo UDP-205 universal players to play all types of hi-res recordings. The Oppo players directly drive vintage tube amps (i.e., using the Oppo’s built-in DAC, pre-amp, and bass management) for surround-sound, and stereo.


What music do they use to audition equipment?

A hi-res recording of Mahler Symphony 2.

 

[Artie]

Sorry guys. (Gals?) This is another one of those situations where I didn't read every word in the thread. The difference for me, is understanding the material. This is why I miss Karl Haas. I was listening to him on the radio even when I was listening to Jimi and The Beatles. He explained what I was about to hear, and why it was relevant. I miss him.

 

[mashaffer]

I would say I listen to close to 90% what would be considered classical or period sacred music. The remainder however includes not just classic rock but other forms that have similarities to classical that bear on the characteristics of the recordings and sound equipment. These other types would include things like folk/bluegrass, non-synthesized jazz, and the like.

One of the major things that differentiate these from your standard pop/rock is the tremendous amount of intricate detail in the pianissimo portions of the music. There are many places where the soft passages are in fact extremely soft but at the same time contain very intricate tonal and rhythmic details that provide not only a great deal of intellectual interest but strong emotional tension (or in some cases release). So the clarity of the"first watt" is particularly important here.

Another aspect is that the impurity of unamplified voices and acoustic instruments is often less tolerable in this context than would be the case for "[insert appropriate rock band name] Live". A shrieking soprano that is highly distorted is painful where a shrieking lead guitar that is equally distorted can simply be even richer. A clean upper midrange with good headroom (or at least soft overload response) is even more critical.

In large scale classical music the ability to maintain the distinct sounds of individual instruments and voices in the fortissimo sections is more critical as well.

Of course all of these are a relative matter. It is not that it doesn't matter in pop or rock but is of rather larger importance for classical and similar genres. And of course this isn't an exhaustive list but it does include a good chunk of what I listen for.

 

[fred soop]

Robert_kc - I tend to agree with much of what you have posted though I often prefer some of the older recordings such as the remastered Mercury Living Presence and RCA Living Stereo. This is mainly because the orchestras of that time period were more about the performance while I feel that too many orchestras today are more interested in putting notes on a track where an engineer creates the final product. I've also heard quite a few recordings that were simply bad.

From the _kc in your ID, I'd have to guess Kansas City but it sounds more like you are in Chicago. If you want a lot of bang for the entertainment buck, the Midwest Clinic holds a 3 1/2 day conference in December featuring the best of the "amateur" orchestras from around the country. I only learned of it last year (long story) and was in with a pass but it appears that it is open to those not affiliated with a musical group or vendor at slightly under $200. I was able to attend 13 performances in 3 days. This renewed my memory of what classical should sound like. Mark Custom Records makes recordings of all the performances and CDs are available a few months later. They use only 2 microphones (similar to Mercury back in the day) and these recordings sound quite good compared to a lot of commercial recordings.

 

[robert_kc]

Robert_kc - I tend to agree with much of what you have posted though I often prefer some of the older recordings such as the remastered Mercury Living Presence and RCA Living Stereo. This is mainly because the orchestras of that time period were more about the performance while I feel that too many orchestras today are more interested in putting notes on a track where an engineer creates the final product. I've also heard quite a few recordings that were simply bad.

As I said earlier, some vintage classical recordings have good enough audio quality that I can enjoy them on rare occasion. However, my strong preference is for modern recordings with best-in-class surround-sound audio, and high-definition video.

I own a dozen of the RCA Living Stereo SACDs. (I had mentioned the 1959 Heifetz recording earlier.) Here’s an RCA Living Stereo SACD of Van Cliburn that was remastered from a 1958 analog tape featuring 3 channels (left, center, right). The SACD delivers the original 3 channels. Sound quality is good - considering the vintage - but far below current state-of-the art.

I have a few of the Mercury Living Presence SACDs that were remastered from original 35mm three channel “magnetic film tapes”, and the SACD delivers the 3 channels. This SACD of Janos Starker contains recordings made in 1962 and 1964. Sound quality is good, considering the vintage, but not current state-of-the art.

This DVD contains the excellent 1982 film adaptation by Zeffirelli of “La Traviata”. IIRC, this was originally recorded on 35mm film. The stereo audio quality is good considering the vintage. The wide-screen video quality is good considering the vintage, when up-scaled by my Oppo UDP-205. However, in both cases, not current state-of-the art. I hope the original film is remastered into Blu-ray.

This Blu-ray (Euroarts) of performances of Mozart Piano Concertos are from the late 1980s, and were originally recorded on 35mm film. Stereo audio, not surround-sound. Audio and video quality are very good, but not current state-of-the art:

This afternoon, I briefly listened to excerpts from 3 recordings of Beethoven’s Missa Solemnis.

This CD (DG) of a 1991 performance of Missa Solemnis by James Levine and the Wiener Philharmoniker has good stereo audio quality. However, on my basement system, where the main L&R speakers must be far apart, the audio quality of this recording pales in comparison with the modern surround-sound recordings listed below.

This SACD (Pentatone) of a 2016 performance of Missa Solemnis by Marek Janowski and the Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Berlin has excellent 5.0 surround-sound audio quality.

This Blu-ray (C major) featuring DTS-HD MA 5.0 audio of a 2012 performance of Missa Solemnis by Nikolaus Harnoncourt and the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam has excellent audio and video quality. I much prefer the combination of high-def video and hi-res audio.

I received in the mail yesterday a Blu-ray box set of all Beethoven symphonies by Christian Thielemann and the Weiner Philharmoniker. Thus far I’ve only had time to watch/listen to a sampling of the discs. My initial assessment is that these have excellent DTS-HD MA 5.0 audio, and excellent video quality. The concert hall is beautiful.

For me, nothing compares with modern state-of-the-art recordings on Blu-ray and Ultra HD Blu-ray featuring high-definition video, and hi-res surround-sound. Going forward, as a general rule the only recordings that I purchase are Blu-ray and Ultra HD Blu-ray discs.

 

[Capitol C]

I hadn't looked at this thread in a while, but I'm glad that I looked again. Thank you to everyone for your detailed and thoughtful replies. I've learned some new things, and I've learned how to better articulate things I already knew! Also, I now have a list of recordings to sample. This, to me, is Audiokarma at its best!

 

[Pyrrho]

I read and enjoy a lot of Audiokarma, and learn a lot about areas of music and technology that I haven’t experienced. But I listen mostly to classical music, and was wondering if classical music listeners have requirements for their systems that are different from the mainstream? For example, classical music has a very wide dynamic range, ensembles vary in size from solo music to symphony with chorus, and the music is acoustic and (ideally) performed in carefully designed halls, so there is a right way for it to sound.

Just to be clear, I’m not saying that classical is better than other music, or that the properties are unique—folk and jazz can be acoustic, and rock can challenge systems dynamically. What I’m curious about, though, is what kind of things classical listeners look for, what they like and don’t like, where they are on the objective vs subjective spectrum, what formats they prefer, what music they use to audition equipment, etc.

If one had perfect speakers, they would be perfect for all kinds of music. Of course, no speaker is perfect, and most speakers are not nearly as good as the best speakers that are made. Most people buy lesser speakers due to budget. So compromises are necessary for most people.

When I was very young, I listened to rock music and pretty much nothing else. I was poor, and could not get everything I wanted. I ended up buying some very cheap speakers that had 15" woofers, to get the bass that I wanted (or, rather, as much bass as I could afford). (I believe the brand was "Parallax", though I am not certain of that.) Their lack of clarity and their level of distortion were less important to me at that time. Bass output mattered more to me at that time. (Of course, if I had been rich, when I heard the Infinity QLS-1, I would have purchased them, but even the bottom of the line Infinity speakers back then were out of my price range.) So, I lived with the low-quality speakers with the 15" woofers for a while. But I started listening to some classical music (I bought a tuner just to listen to classical music, because I did not know what classical music to buy on LP, and I could not afford a lot of LPs at that time either). And even with rock, they were less than ideal. Which I realized at the start, but I could only buy what I could afford, and had, at the time of purchase, prioritized bass output over pretty much everything else.

After buying and selling a few different speakers, I settled on Heybrook HB2 speakers, which were, in some respects, the opposite of those earlier speakers. The Heybrooks are refined and have a very good sound to them. Being small bookshelf speakers, they lack deep bass. They also have a limited maximum volume. But they play loud enough in a modest room as long as one does not require deafening levels of sound. They were my main speakers for more than a decade. They were much better for classical music (and rock if one valued clarity over volume and bass output), though obviously were not perfect, as they could not play the deep notes of a pipe organ or reach the deafening peaks that an orchestra can reach, but I could only buy what I could afford.

I will skip the next few steps, and say that I now listen to Apogee Stage speakers, along with a subwoofer (SVS), for my main 2 channel system. This is great for all kinds of music, though I would not bother with these speakers if I were just listening to, say, the great Jimi Hendrix, as their clarity would be unnecessary for that sort of music, and other speakers would, in some ways, be easier to live with. It does not hurt anything, though, so I don't need a separate system for playing his music.


Regarding how things should sound, in my opinion, it is not just classical music that has a "right" way for it to sound; I think all of it does. Recorded music was designed to be played back on equipment that was designed to try to recreate sound accurately (or, in other words, that would play that classical music accurately). Of course, one may wish to alter the sound, for a variety of reasons, and there is nothing wrong with doing that, if that is what one wishes to do.

 

[DirtFarmer]

And nothing beats ancient Chinese classical music!

 

[eickmewg]

Robert_kc,
I'd love to hang out in your basement!
Bill