Clipping Damages Speakers - Yes or No

[jonnysocko]

Amplifier clipping in itself does not damage speakers but that’s not to say that a certain amplifier pushed to the point of clipping won’t damage a specific speaker that has been bushed past what it was electrically or mechanically designed to handle. A load/speaker will handle what it was designed to do regardless if the amp is clipping or not.

 

[Superampman]

Amplifier clipping in itself does not damage speakers but that’s not to say that a certain amplifier pushed to the point of clipping won’t damage a specific speaker that has been bushed past what it was electrically or mechanically designed to handle. A load/speaker will handle what it was designed to do regardless if the amp is clipping or not.

Finally, a different angle! And it only took 100 posts!

 

[chicks]

Amplifier clipping in itself does not damage speakers but that’s not to say that a certain amplifier pushed to the point of clipping won’t damage a specific speaker that has been bushed past what it was electrically or mechanically designed to handle. A load/speaker will handle what it was designed to do regardless if the amp is clipping or not.

Yep, pretty much been settled by those who actually understand the processes involved. This thread from nearly a year ago (and many others) came to the same conclusion: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=570917&page=4

Sometimes it's like Groundhog Day around here...

 

[SoCal Sam]

Amplifier clipping in itself does not damage speakers but that’s not to say that a certain amplifier pushed to the point of clipping won’t damage a specific speaker that has been bushed past what it was electrically or mechanically designed to handle. A load/speaker will handle what it was designed to do regardless if the amp is clipping or not.

There is no implied safety in an unequal rating pairing. The most common mistake in matching speakers to amplifier is thinking that the speaker's watt rating is safe with any amp with a lower watt rating. That is not the case. The other misconception is that a speaker cannot handle an amp with greater wattage rating. The failure mode here must be mechanical and due to user error. Surely the distortion from bottoming out is audible...:scratch2:

I'm sure the above has been discussed at length but I take it as gospel.

 

[jonnysocko]

This is a debate I hear all the time and it's really not that complicated. If your speaker system is adequate for the audio system your running? Then you'll have no problems. A lot of the speakers I fix have been pushed past their design parameters or have failing or inadequate crossover networks to handle the current their trying to pass. A conductor could care less if the current is DC, AC or from planet X. It just has to be robust enough to take the heat and the capacitors, resistors and coils in the crossover networks need to be designed to handle those loads not to mention being able to pass the right frequency’s to the loads hooked up to them.

 

[spicer]

Amplifier clipping in itself does not damage speakers but that’s not to say that a certain amplifier pushed to the point of clipping won’t damage a specific speaker that has been bushed past what it was electrically or mechanically designed to handle. A load/speaker will handle what it was designed to do regardless if the amp is clipping or not.

That's true...mechanical concerns aside for a minute if the device can dissipate the heat it certainly won't be damaged, doesn't matter what the signal looks like.

 

[restorer-john]

The dynamic headroom debacle was instigated by NAD pretty much to upsell their poorly spec'd transformers in their various amplifiers. The regulation on their transformers was so poor that the rails would sag 40% or more under rated loads and continue to sag when the TX/formers got hot. They were just cheaply built. Give me a FTC rated doubling down amplifier full of steel and copper any day over some commutating rail dynamic fiasco that can't deliver a full rail swing for more than 150mS.

They, Proton and to a lesser extent, some of Yamaha's early 80s experiments, were like a turbo charged Ricer compared to a big block V8. One will go all day towing a boat up a hill, while the other will do a quick sprint to the shops and overheat.

I can tell you have explained the spec sheet many times to your many customers. Easily understood. This means the dynamic headroom spec is useless. (Sorry NAD, I have never been impressed.) You have confirmed what I always thought. The ability to double watts from 8 ohm to 4 ohm loads (FTC of course) is a much better indicator of energy potential.

 

[twiiii]

I remember the service manual for a Crown DC300 entitled 300 watts and a cloud of smoke. Owners assumed Crown meant the amp and I know they meant the speaker coils. Oh I blew up diaphragms with Macs, too. But when Mac came out with the MC2200 and 2205 with Power Guard all the speaker destruction stopped. The MC2300 was the greatest speaker killer I ever used. With the amps with Power Guard consumer speakers could take a lot more power than before. Altec JBL, Ev, Klipsch that had been rated at 30 watts could easily handle a MC502 which could put out 70 watts before the Power Guard turned on. Altec and JBL Drivers rated at 50 watts could take 100 watts plus from a MC 2120, where an old 2105 would take out a diaphragm in 5 minutes. ML1 and 2 whose tweeters were destroyed by 2105's could be driven all day by 2120's and 2125's. ML-4's that 2300's would tear apart could be driven all day by 2255's and 7270's with no issues. La Scalas and Cornwalls who'd be destroyed by 2105s and DC-300A's were safe with 2125's. JBL Paragons driven by Crowns and solid state Marantz that ate 075 and 375 diaphragms ran well with 2155's and 2125's. But the MC2300 was the biggest culprit. Its clips around 4oo+ watts and that's dangerous for any speaker. Mcintosh 3500's were very kind to speakers, as were 275's.

 

[Superampman]

What does power guard do to prevent damage?

 

[Guest105]

Well, that seems to have put a damper on things. Hopefully the voting will continue....and remember folks, there is absolutely no obligation to justify your position with a bombastic manifesto regarding your beliefs on the subject!

While I had asked respondents to refrain from such commentary, it has actuallly turned out to be quite interesting. From what I can see so far, the "YES" voters - at least based on the posts that have been made to date - fall into five distinct groups:

1. Clipping converts AC signal to DC. DC damages speakers.
2. Clipping produces high levels of high-frequency energy via harmonics, thereby over-driving the tweeters.
3. Clipping causes distortion, and the distortion does the damage.
4. I've damaged my speakers, and my amp was clipping when the damage occurred. Therefore, clipping caused the damage.
5. Clipping damages speakers...this is what I've always heard and therefore I believe it.

There is a sixth group which seems to feel that clipping cannot be separated as an event from subsequent events which may be triggered by the clipping event. Logically, I assume that this group would take the position that any speaker damage which occurs while an amp is clipping (regardless of degree) is therefore caused by the clipping. But I don't know that to be the case, so I can't consider them as one of the YES vote "subgroups".

The NO votes all seem to be fall into a single group, sharing the belief that excessive power (specifically, more power than the driver/speaker is capable of handling) is the culprit...regardless of whether or not the amp is in clipping.

I also gleaned another scenario relating clipping and speaker damage from one of the Westhost/Rod Elliott articles (which, by the way, appear to have been written at different points in time, and reflect changing opinions as regards the "facts" of clipping; he apparently does not update his library of articles to maintain consistency within them as his views change).

In any case, my take-away was that damage is sometimes caused by a listener who continues to boost the volume of a clipping amp (in a fruitless attempt to get louder bass/low end ) and pushes it to the point at which the tweeters are simply overpowered. In this scenario, one could argue that clipping "enabled" the damage because it allows higher-frequency signals to be additionally amplified after lower frequency signals have hit their maximum output. Personally, I would not consider clipping as causal in this situation. As Elliott indirectly points out, the same amount of power produced by a non-clipping amp would do precisely the same damage. It's the power, not the clipping, doing the damage.

As noted below by HTWillie, the Rane document referenced by several respondents shares this premise.

Perhaps I will run a second poll when this one runs its course, this time to get an idea of the size of each of the "sub-groups" making up the YES vote. This would be at least as interesting as the results of the current poll.

Thanks for your interest and participation....KEEP THE VOTES COMING!

 

[62caddy]

Clipping in & of itself will not destroy tweeter without sufficient power behind it.

Right. Got that.

As I understand it, when clipping does occur:

#1. The amplifier generates a disproportionate amount of HF energy relatively to the LF - which is promptly diverted to the HF drivers (which also happen the most delicate).

#2 The extra HF energy comes at the expense of LF content in the signal which means even more excessive HF power going to the tweeters. (Imagine a big % of the energy (power) from your woofers all going to your tweeters!)

#3 The Silent Killer: Since clipping often occurs at high loudness, it is difficult for the human ear to detect the excessive HF component because it is masked by the lower and mid frequencies! Your tweeters will not be able to make enough noise to override the sound from the other drivers no matter HOW MUCH power you send them - to alert the listener there is a problem!

All you know is that after things settle down and you go to play something else at a quiet level, the HF drivers are gone.

Again, it IS excessive power that destroys the HF drivers - there is no mistake about that. The problem is that most of the time when clipping is taking place, most of us will NOT be aware it is occurring.

McIntosh conducted extensive experimentation with these phenomenon when designing Power Guard and determined this is exactly what was happening.

 

[jonnysocko]

It's funny how all us rockers with guitar amps drive our rigs to clipping all the time and never wear out loads like some of these audio guys? Wonder what's really going on? Now class, please open your Radiotron Designer handbook to the chapter discussing loudspeaker load efficiency! LOL!

 

[spicer]

It's funny how all us rockers with guitar amps drive our rigs to clipping all the time and never wear out loads like some of these audio guys? Wonder what's really going on? Now class, please open your Radiotron Designer handbook to the chapter discussing loudspeaker load efficiency! LOL!

Guitar amps and the speakers they drive are made for that kind of use, plus the speakers generally don't have high frequency drivers unless they are crystal type that are almost immune to any kind of abuse. Unless you're using sound reinforcement speakers for your home system plug the guitar into the mic input of your stereo system and give it a blast to see what happens. It won't stay funny for very long.

 

[50nstillhifi]

Wow..this debate was an ( o ) opener..!

I did not think the term "clipping" would generate this much debate :scratch2:.

I suppose the term is used liberally where it describes amplifier or speaker ruin and this may be where we see things differently.

I also found interesting that the "experience" related to where and when "clipping" is believed to have happened, had alot to do with some conclusions about the damage that follows.

Two things seem to be consistent with specs and the anticipated performance of the components:

If an amplifier is rated high or "un-clippable", it is expected to never destroy a speaker rated "power" high, as well :thmbsp:.

And if a speaker is resilient in design materials, it is expected to absorb any abuse via poor amp/unusual signal feed/distortions :thmbsp:.

I am thinking now these expectations were won over by good marketing or cheating/groomed specs. Nonetheless, it would perhaps be a better idea to look at the actual independent lab tests for a speaker or amp for presumptions of performance.

It may take more time but those test results are out there and many of them are done well.

So what did I learn.. "Clipping" can ruin an amp or a speaker :yes:!

It just depends upon which is going to fail "first" at the critical moment.

 

[Guest105]

I did not think the term "clipping" would generate this much debate :scratch2:.

I suppose the term is used liberally where it describes amplifier or speaker ruin and this may be where we see things differently.

I also found interesting that the "experience" related to where and when "clipping" is believed to have happened, had alot to do with some conclusions about the damage that follows.

Two things seem to be consistent with specs and the anticipated performance of the components:

If an amplifier is rated high or "un-clippable", it is expected to never destroy a speaker rated "power" high, as well :thmbsp:.

And if a speaker is resilient in design materials, it is expected to absorb any abuse via poor amp/unusual signal feed/distortions :thmbsp:.

I am thinking now these expectations were won over by good marketing or cheating/groomed specs. Nonetheless, it would perhaps be a better idea to look at the actual independent lab tests for a speaker or amp for presumptions of performance.

It may take more time but those test results are out there and many of them are done well.

So what did I learn.. "Clipping" can ruin an amp or a speaker :yes:!

It just depends upon which is going to fail "first" at the critical moment.

It appears that you may have some confusion regarding the subject of the poll. From my initial post:

Definition of Clipping: The situation in which an amplifier is pushed to create a signal with more amplitude than the power supply can produce. The portion of the signal which is beyond the capability of the amplifier is "cut off" (clipped). Subsequent failures of the amplifier, such as oscillation - while they may be triggered by excessive clipping - are outside the scope of this poll.

Clipping does not refer to, nor is it a descriptor for, "amplifier or speaker ruin".

 

[HTWillie]

I also gleaned another scenario relating clipping and speaker damage from one of the Westhost/Rod Elliott articles... that damage is sometimes caused when a listener continues to boost the volume of a clipping amp (in a fruitless attempt to get louder bass/low end ) and pushes it to the point at which the tweeters are simply overpowered...

And most importantly, as Elliott indirectly points out, the same amount of power produced by a non-clipping amp would do precisely the same damage.

That was pretty much the entire premise of the Rane paper.

Sometimes it's hard to find online so I've attached it.

 

[Chris Brown]

Ugh. Asking if Clipping causes speaker damage is like asking if alcohol causes car accidents. Alcohol may be a factor but ultimately it's intoxicated drivers that cause car accidents. Just the same, Clipping may be a factor, but ultimately it's the amp, how it behaves, and the power it's putting into the speaker that causes damage.

Seems like this results in a lot of word games. For some, something simply being a factor is enough to proclaim it is the cause. For others, it's more about the big picture.

Thankfully these threads generally have enough good info in them that those who want to understand what is actually happening are able to do so.

 

[Superampman]

That was pretty much the entire premise of the Rane paper.

Sometimes it's hard to find online so I've attached it.

Why does it have to be so painful?

 

[Guest105]

Ugh. Asking if Clipping causes speaker damage is like asking if alcohol causes car accidents. Alcohol may be a factor but ultimately it's intoxicated drivers that cause car accidents. Just the same, Clipping may be a factor, but ultimately it's the amp, how it behaves, and the power it's putting into the speaker that causes damage.

Seems like this results in a lot of word games. For some, something simply being a factor is enough to proclaim it is the cause. For others, it's more about the big picture.

Thankfully these threads generally have enough good info in them that those who want to understand what is actually happening are able to do so.

I had no intent to engage in some sort of semantic trickery with the question being polled. Perhaps this will help:

• If you believe that a clipped signal, in and of itself, can cause speaker damage, vote YES.
  
• If you believe that a clipped signal generates DC, and you believe that DC damages speakers, vote YES.
  
• If you believe that a clipped signal generates a large increase in high-frequency energy, thereby damaging tweeters, vote YES.
  
• If you believe that clipping damages speakers, but don't know how/why, vote YES.
  
• If you believe that a clipped signal, in the absence of any "downstream" failures within the amp, damages speakers, vote YES.
  
• If you believe that clipping inherently and in all cases triggers amplifier oscillation capable of damaging speakers, vote YES.
  
• If you believe that a clipping amp can cause speaker damage only when the power it is producing is beyond the capabilities of the speakers, vote NO.
  
• If you believe that clipping may induce oscillation or other aberrant behavior(s) on the part of the amp, which in turn may induce speaker damage, vote NO. Note: I suspect that at least some voters with this belief have already voted YES...but in my view clipping is not causal in this scenario. Amps can oscillate in the absence of clipping, and amps can develop other problems which put speakers at risk, again in the absence of clipping. A clipping amp should not demonstrate dangerous oscillation; to the extent it does so, I submit that it is a flawed design. In this case, clipping cannot be deemed the causal variable.

 

[62caddy]

Technically, accidents are caused by two objects trying to occupy the same space at the same time.

Otherwise I thought the alcohol metaphor was pretty good.

*I voted 'yes' but upon reflection, I suppose that's incorrect as clipping alone isn't enough to result in damage, speaking literally.