jonnysocko
Member
I think it's pretty safe to say "clipping" can be added to the file drawer containing politics & religion. LOL!
Clipping Damages Speakers - Yes or No
- Thread starter Guest105
- Start date
Technically, accidents are caused by two objects trying to occupy the same space at the same time.
Otherwise I thought the alcohol metaphor was pretty good.
*I voted 'yes' but upon reflection, I suppose that's incorrect as clipping alone isn't enough to result in damage, speaking literally.
Based upon your earlier post (#111), your vote of YES is consistent with your particular beliefs. Specifically, your position - as I understand it - is that clipping generates excessive high-frequency energy which destroys the tweeters. In your scenario, the damaging event is a direct result of clipping. Therefore clipping is the cause of the damage.
Regarding the alcohol analogy...personally, I don't find it to be applicable. An intoxicated person will always show symptoms of poor judgement, impaired reflexes and balance, vision impairment, etc. These symptoms always create significant risks to the intoxicated person and those around him/her.
For the analogy to be appropriate, one must assume that clipping always creates a serious risk or likelihood of damage to speakers. In turn, this implies the belief that there is something about clipping that is inherently dangerous to speakers.
Therefore, this analogy works only if one has already come to the position that clipping damages speakers (or creates significant risk of speaker damage). If on the other hand one believes that a speaker can accommodate any level of clipping so long as the power level does not exceed the capabilities of the speaker, the analogy is fundamentally flawed.
1970zHiFiGuy
Active Member
Most certainly yes. A very long time ago I made the mistake of selling a pair of Dynaco A25 to a drunk/drug addict named Billy , I had own them for a while and had run them with a few different amplifiers , one of them being a old Phase Linear 400 which is 205 watts RMS a side if my memory is correct. The imfamous Billy/Drunk/Drug Addict blew both speakers within 24 hours ! How? I can only imagine but I guarantee that booze/drugs/stupidity and a poor little Akai AM U11 in clipping for hours were involved.
1970zHiFiGuy
Active Member
Most certainly yes. A very long time ago I made the mistake of selling a pair of Dynaco A25 to a drunk/drug addict named Billy , I had own them for a while and had run them with a few different amplifiers , one of them being a old Phase Linear 400 which is 205 watts RMS a side if my memory is correct. The imfamous Billy/Drunk/Drug Addict blew both speakers within 24 hours ! How? I can only imagine but I guarantee that booze/drugs/stupidity and a poor little Akai AM U11 in clipping for hours were involved. After that experience I had to screen my potential buyer for my used gear more carefully , I always want to see any decent piece of gear go to a good owner who will take care of it not fry it to a crisp.
chicks
Lunatic Member
Sigh. You didn't read the PDF that's been referenced here more than once, did you?
A 1 watt amplifier can clip all day long into a voice coil that can safely dissipate the heat of more power than the amp can deliver without doing any damage whatever. Clipping, per the PDF, only adds a minimal amount of power.
Voice coils are damaged by too much power, whether the amp is clipping, oscillating, or just playing music.
spicer
Lunatic Member
That is correct. If the driver can take the power without overheating it won't be damaged. 12 volts from a car battery can be placed across an 8 ohm tweeter rated for 20 watts dissipation and it won't be damaged. 15 volts with the same capacity behind it and with not too much time it will smoke. Anybody can make the application to an amp with sufficient power and a given set of tweeters/mids to the degree of current at higher frequencies caused by overdriving/clipping the amp for a certain percent of the time. People might remember having seen speaker power ratings given as being able to safely handle program material through an amp of a given amount of power without sustained clipping above a certain percentage of the time.... like a 100 watt amplifier not clipped more than 5 percent of the time. Something like that. It's a dynamic situation... the program material is dynamic. The program has a dynamic range as does the equipment. The program has to stay within the dynamic range of the equipment. Production maintains an industry standard for what is considered acceptable for both the recording media and playback equipment... no way you can record and reproduce the dynamic range of a large jet engine at full throttle.. or an artillery piece.. even a 30.06... hardly a jack hammer. Simply too much acoustical energy. Compression is necessary but in those cases it is top down. When a power amp is overdriven it's dynamic range is compressed except from the bottom up, which increases the average, not peak, power output. If a significant portion of the increased average is increased distortion due to overdriving the amplifier that distortion will be of higher frequency than what produced it, which is directed by the crossover to the high frequency drivers. If enough energy is present the drivers voice coils will be damaged, often burned. You don't see woofers damaged that way... ask yourself why not.... Woofers are almost always damaged by too much raw power, or unprotected amplifier failures that put the power supply across the speakers. That's called going DC. Woofers don't have capacitors in series with their voice coils so in that situation they often burn the voice coil and the tweeters remain undamaged.
chrisinsc
Active Member
I think my brain is clipping.
High spl levels are dangerous especially for long periods of time. If you a have a 2 hour party and generate 100db for your guests during that time you are damaging their hearing.
In my living room at 70 db my wife gives me stink eye. At 75 she leaves. At 80 the dog leaves. At 85 I'm probably enjoying it but will only last a song or two. At 90 you can hear it while in the kitchen and no living thing is in the living room. At 95 you can hear it clearly outside with the windows closed and no one is in house anymore. Anyone in the living room will last maybe 15 minutes without hearing damage if they did not do the same thing for the last couple days.
My point here is that I have a rig than can easily generate 95 db in my living room all day long without damaging itself. Just like I have an audi that will go 120mph all day long. I dont do that but sometimes I want to go 90 to pass someone. If I had a stock vw bug I could not do that and would plan my life accordingly. Same goes for audio gear.
High spl levels are dangerous especially for long periods of time. If you a have a 2 hour party and generate 100db for your guests during that time you are damaging their hearing.
In my living room at 70 db my wife gives me stink eye. At 75 she leaves. At 80 the dog leaves. At 85 I'm probably enjoying it but will only last a song or two. At 90 you can hear it while in the kitchen and no living thing is in the living room. At 95 you can hear it clearly outside with the windows closed and no one is in house anymore. Anyone in the living room will last maybe 15 minutes without hearing damage if they did not do the same thing for the last couple days.
My point here is that I have a rig than can easily generate 95 db in my living room all day long without damaging itself. Just like I have an audi that will go 120mph all day long. I dont do that but sometimes I want to go 90 to pass someone. If I had a stock vw bug I could not do that and would plan my life accordingly. Same goes for audio gear.
spicer
Lunatic Member
Oh yea... I hear you. I have a big system too though modest compared to some I've seen. Some would think mine is just beastly loud but not much else. Altec 19s, JBL L220s, and JBL 150s.. all part of an AV system, each with a QSC GX3 driving them with gain adjusted to compensate for speaker efficiency. The rest of the stuff doesn't matter all that much in this discussion. I'm not even going to mention the two sub woofers. It goes GD loud. The QSCs have clip indicators, I've only seem them light once in a while on the L220s. I've never had the whole thing all the way up. It stays clean but inside the confines of a house it's so loud it seems like I'm close to committing some kind of cardinal sin and I'm afraid to go any louder. Most movie sound tracks have a fairly wide dynamic range so the average spl is not damaging. Some music though is fairly limited in dynamic range and played loud it can and will do damage to one's hearing if done for very long or very often. The thing is, compared to the old days, music today can have a much wider dynamic range without that noise floor making itself heard during the subdued parts. Clipping... if I clip this system for any significant percent of time it will destroy every hi frequency driver I have. I made my living for a number of years installing, servicing and repairing these things.....electronics, instrument amplifiers, speakers, processing units, mixers, tape transports.
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spicer
Lunatic Member
Until it's output is a square wave at the rails. Multiply whatever voltage that is times the current and you'll have the power. Or square the voltage and divide it by the resistance... same number.
Superampman
AK Member
Is there an equation to determine what that number is using only published specs? The suspense is killin me
runnin'
Super Member
While I could generally agree with you there, what you're doing I think is what others are doing in this poll, using an outlier to provide your findings. An early post in this thread cited a 5 watt amp. However, the vast majority of audio enthusiasts, whether they be 2 channel or home theater, employ amps or amp sections far greater than 5 watts per channel.
Using such small amps is perfectly fine, don't misunderstand me. But for the purposes of this poll, citing tiny amps or massive voice coils doesn't really advance the conversation. This poll is more of a "generally speaking" non-specific poll variety, and generally speaking, clipping does damage the majority of speakers being used by the masses. It may not show up, the damage may be of the minor variety, but it certainly can happen.
Generally speaking, I agree with your position.
However in strict interpretation of the OP's query as worded, and in the absence of any qualifications debarring the "unlikely" or "outlier", the answer would have to be no.
The chief point is that without sufficient power, driver damage will not result from clipping - in & of itself - strictly & technically speaking.
Otherwise, yes clipping is a very real issue indeed and can very well result in loudspeaker damage under most practical applications.
The query, as worded:
Definition of Clipping: The situation in which an amplifier is pushed to create a signal with more amplitude than the power supply can produce. The portion of the signal which is beyond the capability of the amplifier is "cut off" (clipped). Subsequent failures of the amplifier, such as oscillation - while they may be triggered by excessive clipping - are outside the scope of this poll.
An additional note of clarification; the intent of the question is to determine beliefs regarding whether or not clipping is a primary cause of speaker damage. There may, of course, be other ways in which speaker damage occurs. And, the question is NOT "does clipping always damage speakers". In other words, one does not have to believe that clipping causes damage in all cases to believe that it creates a significant risk of damage occurring, or that it is a common/frequent cause of damage.
Simply put, the question is "does a clipped signal cause damage"? As noted, I exclude downstream failures (for example, oscillation) from my definition of "clipping-caused damage". I also exclude damage from cranking the volume knob to the point at which the amp is producing more power than the speakers can handle, regardless of whether the amp is clipping or not.
Is there an equation to determine what that number is using only published specs? The suspense is killin me
Yes, there is.
So, generally speaking, can you describe how clipping damages speakers? In other words, what is the mechanism by which the damage occurs? What is it about a clipped signal that damages speakers? Thanks!