VintageDutch
Active Member
Hhahah @Mister Pig You crack me up...
Que-ing is not the problem...The distance to the Glass of Whiskey is....
Que-ing is not the problem...The distance to the Glass of Whiskey is....
Crazy idea...
- Thread starter VintageDutch
- Start date
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
That is why you carry it with you....
VintageDutch
Active Member
@Mister Pig You have a point sir...
I'll get my Girlfriend better trained... Now that's upping the game...
I'll get my Girlfriend better trained... Now that's upping the game...
I think that you could probably find a BSR or Garrard that would be slightly more promising a bed than the little suitcase jobs, and might be cheaper too - the one you illustrate your proposal with probably derives all of its current value from its cuteness, which is considerable. The early small BSRs also used in suitcases are cute as the dickens - I had exactly the same thought as you when I found one with its tonearm trashed, but that brings up another reason for the standard size BSRs - the suitcase tables may operate off the power transformer shared with the amp. So in addition to having rudimentary bearings and platters, these guys need you need to wire up the transformer. Not the end of the world, but one more hassle.
Meanwhile there is a thread here or at Vinyl Engine by a guy who did heroic work upgrading his basic BSR, and claims it is a world beater, so maybe the effort will justify itself.
Meanwhile there is a thread here or at Vinyl Engine by a guy who did heroic work upgrading his basic BSR, and claims it is a world beater, so maybe the effort will justify itself.
VintageDutch
Active Member
Hee @Nat
Cuteness is not in the picture for me anyhow... To me it is the Drive wheel technology...
The big boys and the little buggers seem to share that technology . One a bit bigger then the other... but basicly the same.. That's what is striking to me and got me thinking...
And yes they have a certain cuteness.. I can't deny.
By the way... Could you provide a link to the mentioned article? It would be great. Thanks
Cuteness is not in the picture for me anyhow... To me it is the Drive wheel technology...
The big boys and the little buggers seem to share that technology . One a bit bigger then the other... but basicly the same.. That's what is striking to me and got me thinking...
And yes they have a certain cuteness.. I can't deny.
By the way... Could you provide a link to the mentioned article? It would be great. Thanks
I'm sorrym but I have no idea where that thread might be, or if it is actually a thread rather than part of a larger thread. I do remember he had removed the plinth and, if memory serves, was using beer cans for support. His real innovation was to isolate the record from rumble by sticking a second platter on stilts on top of the first platter. In the 'crazy enough that it might work' category.
Here's my opinion: Idler drive has a lot of merit - the torque of the motor is quite directly coupled to the platter, so that when there is a lot of bass, the drag of the stylus tracing the greater groove modulations doesn't slow the platter down, even momentarily, so there are minimal oscillations as the system recovers. This is why people say that idler systems have 'grunt' or immediacy, or drive.
But all of that depends on a couple of things: the motor needs to have substantial torque and the platter needs to have substantial rotational inertia, and the main bearing and drive system need to be quiet and stable enough enough that rumble, flutter and motor noise don't obscure the music. The sort of table you are intending to use may not offer any of those virtues. They usually have small two pole motors that don't offer much torque or speed uniformity, the small light platters have little rotational inertia, and because they are changers, the main bearing is a combination of sleeve and ball race, which is noisier than a simpler bearing even in its more expensive implementations - which these are not.
So the things you are hoping to hear may elude you. But none of my caveats means you won't thoroughly enjoy the fruits of your labor - millions of people, not all of them teenage girls, were entirely satisfied by such tables, even without improved arms and cartridges. But I encourage you to look at the more capable cheap idler tables with bigger platters and better motors - I think you are more likely to meet with success.
Here's my opinion: Idler drive has a lot of merit - the torque of the motor is quite directly coupled to the platter, so that when there is a lot of bass, the drag of the stylus tracing the greater groove modulations doesn't slow the platter down, even momentarily, so there are minimal oscillations as the system recovers. This is why people say that idler systems have 'grunt' or immediacy, or drive.
But all of that depends on a couple of things: the motor needs to have substantial torque and the platter needs to have substantial rotational inertia, and the main bearing and drive system need to be quiet and stable enough enough that rumble, flutter and motor noise don't obscure the music. The sort of table you are intending to use may not offer any of those virtues. They usually have small two pole motors that don't offer much torque or speed uniformity, the small light platters have little rotational inertia, and because they are changers, the main bearing is a combination of sleeve and ball race, which is noisier than a simpler bearing even in its more expensive implementations - which these are not.
So the things you are hoping to hear may elude you. But none of my caveats means you won't thoroughly enjoy the fruits of your labor - millions of people, not all of them teenage girls, were entirely satisfied by such tables, even without improved arms and cartridges. But I encourage you to look at the more capable cheap idler tables with bigger platters and better motors - I think you are more likely to meet with success.
Now we have something else to measure.
The whiskey to errant needle drop ratio.............
OMGCat!
Super Member
Only valid for me on the first drink or two. After that my coordination is shot and the digital comes out lest my records and stylus suffer the brunt of my inebriation (I am a total light weight).
maxhifi
Addicted Member
I have to say, I've played with a lot of small idler drive "record players", and several idler drive "turntables".
The "record players" are built mostly for low cost, and not a single part in them has sufficient precision to be suitable for hifi duty. The arm is bad, the platter is never perfectly round and always wobbles a bit if you look close enough. The idler wobbles too and creates it's own wow which modulates the wow of the platter. The bearing makes noise, the motor rumbles it's way though the platter and into your stylus. The motors also are usually two pole and require the use of a ceramic cartridge to avoid hum.
An idler drive "turntable" on the other hand is made from top to bottom with precision parts, resulting in performance to a high standard.
It can be really fun to play with antique record players, but as soon as you start confusing one for a turntable, prepare to be let down.
The "record players" are built mostly for low cost, and not a single part in them has sufficient precision to be suitable for hifi duty. The arm is bad, the platter is never perfectly round and always wobbles a bit if you look close enough. The idler wobbles too and creates it's own wow which modulates the wow of the platter. The bearing makes noise, the motor rumbles it's way though the platter and into your stylus. The motors also are usually two pole and require the use of a ceramic cartridge to avoid hum.
An idler drive "turntable" on the other hand is made from top to bottom with precision parts, resulting in performance to a high standard.
It can be really fun to play with antique record players, but as soon as you start confusing one for a turntable, prepare to be let down.
VintageDutch
Active Member
Gentlemen,
Thank you all for your explanations, good idea's and last but not least reasons to drink Whiskey..
Reading it all.. the idea gets more vague and distant ... I will not be the next project but something lame to do when we have some kind of world wide virus going round...
I will poor my hard earned cash in to better projects.... I promise.
Thank you all for your explanations, good idea's and last but not least reasons to drink Whiskey..
Reading it all.. the idea gets more vague and distant ... I will not be the next project but something lame to do when we have some kind of world wide virus going round...
I will poor my hard earned cash in to better projects.... I promise.
It shouldn't be difficult to find a standard full size BSR with an actual metal(!) platter for little or no money. It probably will be seized up, but all you want is the on/off and speed selector, so cleaning and relubing shouldn't be complicated. Remove all the stuff you don't want and slap in your arm and see if your idea has any merit. If there is any promise, than you can start trying to improve the thing. I don't think you are likely to throw out all your other tables after experiencing an audio epiphany, but it will probably not be terrible. And you will have some fun and learn things doing it.
I pulled a grundig idler wheel TT out of a console after I scalped the tube amp. Then I put 3" furniture legs on it and used it for 78's before I modded my Technics turntable (even using the originial ceramic cartridge). It worked and was a fun little project, but I just measured the speed on my phone and it did not fair well even against my low end Pioneer unadjustable belt drive (PL-12D).
Grundig - Speed +/- .85% Wow +/- 0.7%
Pioneer - Speed +/- .1% Wow +/- 0.09%
That being said I love projects like this and will be following along with interest.
Grundig - Speed +/- .85% Wow +/- 0.7%
Pioneer - Speed +/- .1% Wow +/- 0.09%
That being said I love projects like this and will be following along with interest.
Unless you're crawling. Really becomes difficult then.
Hifiler
Well-Known Member
Funny, I also follow a strict “No-turntable-use-after-the-first-two-drinks” policy, which unfortunately really limits my turntable use.
VintageDutch
Active Member
You have your GF do the cueing-up? Could you get a photo of this?
Thanks!
No..... I'll need to train her to keep the Whiskey flowing.....into my Glass
And no.... There will be no photo's of that as well
..... You terrible man 
VintageDutch
Active Member
I was not expecting High performance... The Influence of the motor on the cartridge I did Not foresee but is indeed to be expected...I stand corrected...
Stupid enough is that a reason for me to relocate the power transformer in my number one TT project...Not that is was interfering but I wanted maximum distance for the same reason...it let to a number of layout problems...but that's an other story