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Crites question

markshan

markshan

Sir Thrift a Lot
Okay, this may be a stupid question, but I am asking in all seriousness. Klipsch Heritage stuff seems to be growing in scarcity (at least I never see it around my area). Everyone on this board seems to agree that Crites upgrades really improve the sound of their speakers.

I've always wanted a pair of LaScalas. The cabinet construction plans show up from several sources in a a Google search. Is there any reason that a person can't just buy all of the parts from Crites and build their own LaScalas? Is there some downside to that idea that I am missing? Thanks.
 
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A lot of guys do this. Most of us don't own the wood working equipment to make the cuts LaScala require. Call Bob and talk to him about what you want to build and look at his web site and look at his cabinets. And Yes Crites has great drivers,networks etc all you need is $$ and cabinets. I have new Crites networks and his CT-125 tweeters in my Cornwalls. They sound better now then they did when we purchased them new so many years ago.
 
Yeah, unless you have a cabinet saw lying around (you might, I don't know) most of us don't (But I am looking for a pre 80's Delta unisaw if you happen to have one for sale). If you do have one, I am sure there are plans out there to make a set and Bob can source you most of the goods. With a scratch build you can probably address the problems that some people have with the Scalas- rolled off lows and a shouty squawker.
 
Or you could go a bit simpler from a cabinet construction standpoint (and theoretically a lot better sounding from an audio standpoint) and build a Cornscala. Bob can definitely help you with that...

-D
 
derekva: while I agree that the Cornwall cabinet or a Chous cabinet is a much simpler build than that of a LaScala I am curious to know what exactly it is that you mean when you said "theoretically a lot better sounding from an audio standpoint"?
I think that depending upon the op's pocket book there are other options. A set of LaScala would be a days work easy for a well skilled cabinet maker. There are lots of cabinet and renovation shops who could build them but no they won't be cheap but the op gets to choose what they are built from and how they are braced and finished. to be certain refinishing a beat to crap pair of LaScala would be far less expensive but there are options. Best regards Moray James.
 
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markshan said:
Okay, this may be a stupid question, but I am asking in all seriousness. Klipsch Heritage stuff seems to be growing in scarcity (at least I never see it around my area). Everyone on this board seems to agree that Crites upgrades really improve the sound of their speakers.

I've always wanted a pair of LaScalas. The cabinet construction plans show up from several sources in a a Google search. Is there any reason that a person can't just buy all of the parts from Crites and build their own LaScalas? Is there some downside to that idea that I am missing? Thanks.
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You can do even better if you have the budget.

You could build the LaScala bass bins and reinforce the sidewalls to minimize/eliminate any resonant issues. You could then install a Klipsch K33 or a Crites version (which as I understand, is the same). Then, depending on your goal, you could install the stock midrane/tweeter or jack the LaScala up into the next level of sound and make it a JubeScala.

To do that you would buy the Klipsch K510 horn, mate it with the K69 driver (a 2" driver) and make the LaScala a 2-way speaker. You can go active or passive.

Having owned a pair of LaScalas since 1979, the next comment isn't intended to be a bash on a stock pair of LaScalas but rather an informed opinion having heard both versions.

If you want a kick hiney speaker, buy or build a LaScala. If you want to kick that same speaker in the pants, put a JubeScala together. The JubeScala is a significant improvement over the stock.

Oh, and if you buy a pair of stock cabinets and decide to go active, Roy (at Klipsch) has engineered the active paramaters to filter out most of the issues that cause the sidewalls to resonate, -7 db PEQ at 148Hz.
 
I appreciate all the advice but I still can't see how rehabbing old speakers that you have to buy will be more economical than building cabinets.
 
The reason that you can't see why refurbishing an old set would be cheaper than building a new set is likely because you have not built a new set. The bonus with building new is that you can do or have done a better job than the factory did. But rebuilding an old set should also give you the ability to end up with a better than factory set if you include some value added effort and materials such as Coytee mentioned. Best regards Moray James.

PS you can buy beater LaScala for 4 500 a pair a shop built set and cabinets will be at least 800 dollars and more if you use all baltic birch. Your choice.
 
Coytee said:
or jack the LaScala up into the next level of sound and make it a JubeScala.

To do that you would buy the Klipsch K510 horn, mate it with the K69 driver (a 2" driver) and make the LaScala a 2-way speaker. You can go active or passive.
Click to expand...

Describe for me the improvement. I know this is hard to do without hearing it, but you have me curious. Also, what do you use for a crossover in this variation?
 
moray james said:
derekva: while I agree that the Cornwall cabinet or a Chous cabinet is a much simpler build than that of a LaScala I am curious to know what exactly it is that you mean when you said "theoretically a lot better sounding from an audio standpoint"?
I think that depending upon the op's pocket book there are other options. A set of LaScala would be a days work easy for a well skilled cabinet maker. There are lots of cabinet and renovation shops who could build them but no they won't be cheap but the op gets to choose what they are built from and how they are braced and finished. to be certain refinishing a beat to crap pair of LaScala would be far less expensive but there are options. Best regards Moray James.
Click to expand...

If you are familiar with the Cornscala project, it takes the strengths of the LaScala (the mids and highs) and mates it with the strengths of the Cornwall (the bass). Basically you get the best of both worlds without the shortcomings of either. Plus it is a hell of a lot simpler to get right when compared to a folded horn.

But, if the OP wants to stick to the original, then by all means he should inquire with a qualified cabinet maker on costs for restoration.

-D
 
derekav: I am familiar with the Cornscala concept which was the brain child of Bob Crites. While building a reflex cabinet is a simple build compared to a folded horn the LaScala is really not that complex especially if you compare to the building of a KHorn but still enough angles to challenge a first time builder.
Still curious about what you were saying or trying to say. That a Cornscala is better sounding than a Cornwall or better sounding than a LaScala? A Cornwall does not go that much deeper in terms of response than a LaScala does (about ten Hz.) but the horn loaded bass section of the LaScala does have significantly higher efficiency and so much lower distortion. Ten Hz. is not to be dismissed especially between fifty and forty Hz. but when you consider that you can add reflex loading to the bottom end of the LaScala to bring its response down to 30 Hz the Cornwall is pretty much erased from the equation unless overall size is the determining factor. I expect for most folks size is a major concern but once you are exposed to efficiency levels well over 100db it becomes very difficult to go backwards and I fully understand the attraction to high efficiency loudspeakers.
Bob ctites has a number of various Cornscala designs available including two ways which I think are interesting but if size were not a limiting factor I believe the two way LaScala design with the K510 horn and a K69 or other suitable driver would be a very tempting loudspeaker for anyone, especially if the LaScala were upgraded. Best regards Moray James.
 
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markshan said:
Describe for me the improvement. I know this is hard to do without hearing it, but you have me curious. Also, what do you use for a crossover in this variation?
Click to expand...

The biggest improvement is going from a 3-way to a 2-way. The K510/K69 assembly is actually the tweeter assembly used in their cinema lineup. The K69 driver is a 2" driver.

I'm not a tech-head.... so I don't know that I can enumerate a list of benefits other than having heard it....

Let me try another angle.

If you go to the Klipsch site and look up their 3-way Jubilee you will see a monster of a speaker with a monster midrange.

for residental use, Klipsch has reconfigured that 3-way. They've kept the bass bin, kept the midrange horn (only) and kept the tweeter driver (only). They dropped the midrange driver and the tweeter horn.

The tweeter driver (K69) was mated with the midrange horn and crossed below 500hz. For residential use, this 2-way speaker is WAY over kill if you are after volume. Consequently, we don't have to worry about over driving a "tweeter driver".

The Jubilee is the most dynamic, coherent speaker I've ever heard. I ended up buying a pair. The sound on the Jubilee gel's together into a single 'point source' after about 10 feet of distance. When I had Khorns, I had to stand about 30 feet away (measured) before I got the same coherence of sound.

I got to thinking what would I use as a center speaker between these two monsters. I realized the LaScala went higher than the Khorn (bass bins) so asked Roy at Klipsch about putting the huge K402 horn atop a LaScala.

He scratched his head....said I came up with some doozy ideas....and about 6 months later, he came out with the values needed in an electronic crossover for someone who might want to do it. Others saw the benefits and used the smaller K510.


Here's a link with some pictures of other variations

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=277994&highlight=jubescala


The Jubescala is the closest thing I have heard to the Jubilee without having to pay for the huge bass bin of the Jubilee.

If someone were to build a bass bin or, the tops, you could incorporate the smaller K510 into the design and make it more user friendly.

As you might see in the pictures in the link, the huge horn (the K402) is...well... huge. It is actually larger dimensionally (HxW) than the LaScala is when the LaScala is put on its side.

As far as what crossover, going active and biamping will give you the most flexiblity, especially if you use a stock bass bin. Reason being you can not only plug/play the paramaters into an active but, again, Roy has helped tame the sidewalls from resonating with the PEQ fix.

Since I'm all active, I'd have to search around for the design of the passive. I'm pretty sure I have it somewhere. If I don't, it's obtainable.
 
derekva said:
If you are familiar with the Cornscala project, it takes the strengths of the LaScala (the mids and highs) and mates it with the strengths of the Cornwall (the bass). Basically you get the best of both worlds without the shortcomings of either. Plus it is a hell of a lot simpler to get right when compared to a folded horn.
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I have heard at least one person say that it was the worst of both worlds... the DR of the Cornwall (verses horn loaded) mated with the K401 of the LaScala.

Note that Mr. Crites has options other than the K401/K77 in his lineup!!

In my opinion, if I were to build a franken-speaker, I'd decide if I wanted the HF horn to be inside the speaker box or not. If I could swing the huge K402 horn I'd start there, if not, I'd go with the smaller K510.

I'd put it into a 2-way JubeScala box and for the lower octave, rely on a subwoofer...perhaps a Danley DTS-10.

oh wait... (looks around apartment) why yes, I happen to have two Danley DTS-10's inside this apartment.... talk about insane :D
 
markshan said:
Well, that explains it. I've been looking for years and haven't seen a pair close to that.
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I once received a single beater LaScala (without drivers/crossover) for free.

It's not very pretty but for my needs, was perfect. My intent is to wrap it in another layer of 3/4" plywood to help deaden the sides. I can't yet decide if I'm going with a large TV or a drop down screen at the house. Consequently, I can't decide if I'm going to use the huge K402 (which is what I want to use) or the smaller K510.

This speaker will be my center channel.

If I use the K402, I am forced to always use a projector, even if I'm watching the evening news. If I use the K510 and put it inside the speaker, I can put a TV on top of the speaker and still use a screen for movies.

what to do....what to do....

In the end I figure this is a good problem to have. :thmbsp:
 
I am the owner of the first pair of Cornscala's on Bob's website, I built them for the reasons noted --- lack of bass from the LaScala's but glorious mids as well as big bass from the Cornwalls but can be shouty at times..........These Cornscala's are magnificent, tight fast bass ( yup from a fifteen!!??) glorious mids and articulate light highs!!!!! I braced mine and then lined them with thin stuffing and I upgraded the caps to Mundorf Silver and Oil and Mills resistors. I have run these speakers with as little as 1.5 SET watts, however the best they sounded was with 125 old Marantz watts!!!
 
markshan said:
This is a big part of it as I recently found a Leak Stereo 20 amp.
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I had one of those too. The St20 was England's version of the St70 by Dynaco. If you don't mind me asking what is the going price for an St20 these days? If they are more than they are worth you might be well served to cash it in and replace it with a better amp for less money. Antique Sound Labs AQ1003DHT are superb amps (PP EL34) switch out the 12AU7 for a 12BH7. Have seen them in the $600.00 range used. Best regards Moray James.
 
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