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Current cartridges matching the old-school Shure sound?

p.robustini

p.robustini

Active Member
Hi everybody!
Years ago I came across a couple of Shure cartridges and I was stunned by their sound.
I learned that the Shure house sound was originally considered neutral, having a ruler-flat response.
Maybe I like them for that reason, since I play guitar in a rock band and I am exposed to real instrument sounds on a weekly basis.
I am currently running a Shure M97 Era IV with a Nagaoka N97ED nude stylus. I love it (I can't imagine what an N97HE would do!).
I also appreciate the action of the dynamic stabilizer brush, especially for the possibility to mach heavier arms and track even slightly deformed records.
Still I am wondering which of the active brands of today propose cartridges with a flat response and a neutral sound like the Shure of the old times (before the "x" versions with rolled-off top end). Does anyone today also offer a stabilizer brush?

Any ideas?
Thanks in advance!
 
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p.robustini said:
Hi everybody!
Years ago I came across a couple of Shure cartridges and I was stunned by their sound.
I learned that the Shure house sound was originally considered neutral, having a ruler-flat response.
Maybe I like them for that reason, since I play guitar in a rock band and I am exposed to real instrument sounds on a weekly basis.
I am currently running a Shure M97 Era IV with a Nagaoka N97ED nude stylus. I love it (I can't imagine what an N97HE would do!).
I also appreciate the action of the dynamic stabilizer brush, especially for the possibility to mach heavier arms and track even slightly deformed records.
Still I am wondering which of the active brands of today propose cartridges with a flat response and a neutral sound like the Shure of the old times (before the "x" versions with rolled-off top end). Does anyone today also offer a stabilizer brush?

Any ideas?
Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

Is there a link to the Nagaoka nude N97ED stylus ? I would love to see that model.
 
Thank you. I now have eBay Italy in my bookmarks. And now I can access the Japanese store. Does the description state 'nude' ? I don't speak Italian.
 
p.robustini said:
I couldn't find anything official on the web.
Here is where I talk about it on my website.
There is one on sale on eBay but I don't know if the price is right...
Click to expand...

You may be interested to try this stylus:
https://mrstylus.com/en/product/shure-n97ed_black-diamond/

Since I cannot tell if the Nagaoka is nude because I don't read Italian, I have to say that just because a stylus is labeled N97ED does not mean it is nude. Pfanstiehl only has bonded ellipticals but the model is still N97ED on the grip or package. Pfanstiehl also has there own part number. The Black Diamond is definitely a nude. I thought of it for you because you mentioned a hyperelliptical.
The Black Diamond is an elliptical but since the tip is shaped according to the Bruce Diamond Corporation patent, the tip has a longer than usual vertical contact patch and hence resembles a hyperelliptical. They are not expensive so I thought that maybe you would be interested.
 
Thank you, johnjhazel.
The eBay ad says nothing about the stylus tip being nude or bonded. I don't know if it is safe to assume that since the N97ED is by Nagaoka it will be nude (like mine)....
About the link you posted, the stylus tip is not hyperelliptical, it would be a 97HE, not 97ED. It's a good price though, in case I can't find any HE replacement before I consume the Nagaoka ED... ;-)
 
p.robustini said:
Thank you, johnjhazel.
The eBay ad says nothing about the stylus tip being nude or bonded. I don't know if it is safe to assume that since the N97ED is by Nagaoka it will be nude (like mine)....
About the link you posted, the stylus tip is not hyperelliptical, it would be a 97HE, not 97ED. It's a good price though, in case I can't find any HE replacement before I consume the Nagaoka ED... ;-)
Click to expand...

No, the Black Diamond is not a hyperelliptical. I stated 'resembles a hyperelliptical'. It is shaped like one but it does not have the dimensions that one would associate with a hyperelliptical. It has the dimensions of an elliptical. Some distributors were going to label them as hyperellipticals. I along with some others protested. We felt it would just cause confusion. Here is a pic taken through a very expensive stylus microscope. nude swiss elliptical.jpg I
 
I would say the Shure 'house sound' was warm, especially the older cartridges like the M75 and M91, although the later M97 was more neutral. Among modern cartridges, the Grado Prestige range perhaps has a similarly warm sound to the old Shures. I also think the cheap but accomplished AT3600L hints at the Shure sound. But you're probably looking for something neutral. The AT-VM95 cartridges referenced above are more neutral, but with a hint of warmth.
 
The sound the OP is getting from the Shure cart is partly due to the table and arm that are being used, not just the cart.

If he wants the same or similar sound from a currently produced cart then the replacement has to work on that arm and table. Compliance becomes very important as does the DC resistance and the inductance of both the original and the replacement.

I spent many hours and dollars to learn this. The more characteristics you consider and match, the better your chances of getting something that sounds right to your ears.
 
I agree. In arriving at the sound that you want, you have to consider the stylus compliance vs effective-mass of the arm plus the electrical loading, particularly capacitive load,. The reason many people think the M97xE is rolled off is probably because they use it with a higher capacitive load than it requires.
 
Shures weren't that ruler flat or neutral, both then and now, they also don't have the necessary transient response for what I would consider impactful reproduction.

Audio Technica seem to be the most neutral of the MM cartridges, to my ears. And, unless you can spring for a modern Nagaoka MP-500 ($1000), the Audio Technica line is my recommendation for MM carts. The Modern VM750SH is a stunner at its price point.

I also greatly enjoy the sound of vintage Stanton cartridges, but they're not neutral, and new stylii aren't the same (I have been hoarding old ones).
 
johnjhazel said:
No, the Black Diamond is not a hyperelliptical. I stated 'resembles a hyperelliptical'. It is shaped like one but it does not have the dimensions that one would associate with a hyperelliptical. It has the dimensions of an elliptical. Some distributors were going to label them as hyperellipticals. I along with some others protested. We felt it would just cause confusion. Here is a pic taken through a very expensive stylus microscope. View attachment 2317338 I
Click to expand...
Oh well, that's great to know! Thanks!
 
Crab33 said:
I would say the Shure 'house sound' was warm, especially the older cartridges like the M75 and M91, although the later M97 was more neutral. Among modern cartridges, the Grado Prestige range perhaps has a similarly warm sound to the old Shures. I also think the cheap but accomplished AT3600L hints at the Shure sound. But you're probably looking for something neutral. The AT-VM95 cartridges referenced above are more neutral, but with a hint of warmth.
Click to expand...
I am reporting what I have read when I write about Shure carts being neutral and with flat response. And since I like what I hear I speculated: maybe I like it because its response is flat as they say....
So the question was: if I want the same kind of sound from today's cartridges where do I look?
Also your suggestions about Audiotechnica carts is much appreciated if they address my desire for a neutral sound and a flat as possible response.
I also have an AT96HE which I also like and it sound a bit thinner than the Shure M97ED on my system (Thorens TD160 with stock arm).
Thanks everybody!
 
Crab33 said:
I would say the Shure 'house sound' was warm, especially the older cartridges like the M75 and M91, although the later M97 was more neutral. Among modern cartridges, the Grado Prestige range perhaps has a similarly warm sound to the old Shures. I also think the cheap but accomplished AT3600L hints at the Shure sound. But you're probably looking for something neutral. The AT-VM95 cartridges referenced above are more neutral, but with a hint of warmth.
Click to expand...
Funny I was using Grado carts before stumbling into a Shure. I'll consider the AT-VM95 as I already appreciate the old AT95 (but with with a hyperelliptocal stylus)!
 
p.robustini said:
I am reporting what I have read when I write about Shure carts being neutral and with flat response. And since I like what I hear I speculated: maybe I like it because its response is flat as they say....
So the question was: if I want the same kind of sound from today's cartridges where do I look?
Also your suggestions about Audiotechnica carts is much appreciated if they address my desire for a neutral sound and a flat as possible response.
I also have an AT96HE which I also like and it sound a bit thinner than the Shure M97ED on my system (Thorens TD160 with stock arm).
Thanks everybody!
Click to expand...
The Thorens table wants a high compliance cartridge because of the low mass tone arm. I have a TD 166 MKII with a similar arm. I searched a long time to find a modern cart that would sound good on it. The best modern cart I could find was an Ortofon OM series. It's relatively high compliance and gave me the closest sound to the vintage Empire cart that I use daily. There are a number of stylus options for the OM series much like the AT-VM95 series. I tried an AT cart and it wasn't compliant enough to produce a rich bottom end response. If it was installed on a table with a higher mass arm it would have been great. The same happened when I tried a $500 Goldring cart.

Vintage Shure, Empire and new Ortofon carts all sound great on my table. Money wasn't the critical factor.

Bona fortuna
 
JohnT123 said:
The Thorens table wants a high compliance cartridge because of the low mass tone arm. I have a TD 166 MKII with a similar arm. I searched a long time to find a modern cart that would sound good on it. The best modern cart I could find was an Ortofon OM series. It's relatively high compliance and gave me the closest sound to the vintage Empire cart that I use daily. There are a number of stylus options for the OM series much like the AT-VM95 series. I tried an AT cart and it wasn't compliant enough to produce a rich bottom end response. If it was installed on a table with a higher mass arm it would have been great. The same happened when I tried a $500 Goldring cart.

Vintage Shure, Empire and new Ortofon carts all sound great on my table. Money wasn't the critical factor.

Bona fortuna
Click to expand...

Have you tried one of these on your Ortofon OM ?
https://mrstylus.com/en/product/ortofon-stylus-5e-10-20-30-40-analogis-black-diamond/
Since you are in Canada, eBay sellers stereoneedleslady and rivertone.stylus should have some.
 
JohnT123 said:
The Thorens table wants a high compliance cartridge because of the low mass tone arm. I have a TD 166 MKII with a similar arm. I searched a long time to find a modern cart that would sound good on it. The best modern cart I could find was an Ortofon OM series. It's relatively high compliance and gave me the closest sound to the vintage Empire cart that I use daily. There are a number of stylus options for the OM series much like the AT-VM95 series. I tried an AT cart and it wasn't compliant enough to produce a rich bottom end response. If it was installed on a table with a higher mass arm it would have been great. The same happened when I tried a $500 Goldring cart.

Vintage Shure, Empire and new Ortofon carts all sound great on my table. Money wasn't the critical factor.
Click to expand...
Well, at 16.5 g I thought the Thorens TP16 should be considered medium-high mass... I gather I should use low-compliance cartridges with it but I'm really fine with the Shure with the stabilizer down (it tracks superbly) as I was with Grado. Maybe the TD166 MK2's arm is lighter?
 
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The TP16 arm is pretty much medium-mass, so should be OK with a wide variety of compliances, evenly slightly high-compliance styli. I have a Shure V15 II on mine - it came with the turntable and sounds great.

The thing about AT cartridges is that they can sound bright but they require low capacitive load (100-200pF), where they have a more neutral sound. The AT-VM95 range is probably a tad warmer than a typical AT cartridge anyway.
 
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