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DBX Range Expanders with Impact Restoration availability.

M

midwest78man

AK Subscriber
Subscriber
Hello all!

I keep a large collection of 78 discs mainly for the novelty of it, as they've been a massive amount of work to store and listen to properly . Digitization has also been on my mind but is a whole 'nother can of worms ive barely begun to research. Pre-RIAA EQ was bad enough . Anyways what brings me here is about a while ago now a friend gave me a processor he was done with and let me demo what he'd bought.

I kind of wish he hadn't in a way, as my buddy paid a no doubt obscene amount for a DBX 4bxr remote system off the internet! In hindsight he got very, very lucky...The processor itself is just WOW! Its almost beyond words how much it adds to the music without being unpleasant. And with another processor he was able to move the soundstage forward and back with one knob.

Suffice it to say I've got the bug and ive been looking for my own gear to maximise my enjoyment. The Hughes he gave me does an amazing job as a spacial expander, but doesnt really fit my bill for what "Sound Retrieval System" should really mean.

My frustration in trying to find this gear has been enormous. I've been beat to the punch several times now on the affordable units. They spend just hours up and get snatched. A 1dbx and subharmonic synth in Georga was up and gone before I could even consider what it would take to drive two states over!

Folks, am I on the right track here or is there some other combo of gear I should be looking into for what im attempting to do? The day I pay Fleabay prices for dusty, untested equipment is the day I've truly gone nuts and can turn my audiophile license in! My own research shows these units were cheap and pretty available not even five years ago for people wanting to experiment. Am I just getting beat by professional resellers?

Thanks all and sorry for the novel to read!

Jacob, midwest78man
 
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I would steer clear of the 1BX single channel range expander. Its too much of a sledge hammer approach. I had one and gave it away. The new owner didn't like it as well. 3BX or better are the better choices for this brand.
I rarely buy anything off ebay anymore. Prices for equipmant has just gotten ridiculously high. Then there are those buyers that use computer algorithms that when set to watch certain items with a set max bid can swoop in at the last few seconds to snag the item if its still under the set max bid. Hopefully others will chime in with some suggestions that will better fit what your wanting to do with these 78's. The various EQ processes they used back then doesn't help. There are older tube and even earlier SS preamps that had 3 or more different phone EQ settings on a selector switch. The Marantz model 7C was one of them. Macintosh was another.
 
They weren't my first choice by any means but they were dirt cheap and that always helps! I have not found any manuals to confirm but as far as I can logic out the 4bx is a 3bx series 3 with a subharmonic synth integrated for the 4th band. Plus the impact restoration. A regular 3bx or series 2 can be had cheaply in the woodgrain, same with the older synths. The impact restoration always seems to be the expensive part unfortunately .

As far as 78 EQ goes I've got the master doc from George Blood LP, who's work includes the IA's Great 78 Project and the LOC 78 digital collections. As far as my inexperienced personage can find it's completely authoritative so far across some obscure, local labels! At some point id like to upgrade from the LXI (Sansui) 10 band I have but it serves the purpose just fine to my ears!
 
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I still have my 3BX DBX. We had a seminar from DBX and I bought one of the first ones from our initial order from the factory back in the early 70's. I used it basically at first to reduce tape noise and increase dynamic range of LP's and pre recored 1/4 trk 7.5 ips tapes. Then I discovered it really helped with FM broadcasts as the stations compress the signal to much. That holds true even today. I don't use it with good CD's as it pumps the sound and over exaggerates the dynamics. But I do use it sometimes with CD reissues of analog tape recording from the late 50's and 60's. Even some streaming can be improved by a 3BX. Once in a While Berlins Digital Concert HAll performances when recorded on film from the past need a spoofing up. Thats why I also have a program EQ when older recordings over emphasize the mid to lower bass because the recording has nothing below 60 HZ or so or may have an unnatural boost from 4 to 7 Khz to make up for nothing higher. Acoustic guitar recordings some times need a lot of help as do Classical Harp recordings. I'm not really fond of Harpsichord's, but a 3BX can really help those performances, too.

If you have ever lived with a former award winning Pianist you know how much most professional piano recordings have been compromised. A 3BX can some times make a piano recording seem almost life like. Lang Lang really knows how to challenge recording and mastering engineers.. If done correctly you won't need a 3BX. Some times I wish I had a DBX bass synthsizer for LP's with no bass. But a little bit of what they do can go along way. Of course having speakers that reach to 25 HZ and below is a prerequisite. After I lost my 1812 Overture Lp, I got a pristine one from Acoustic Sounds made by Telarc. I was blown away and amazed that Telarc could make a Lp with great dynamics and bass that reached that low. It matched my CD and sounded more life like in a lot of ways. Some of the masters from the 70's and 80's really new how to make great recordings and were able to produce LP's with almost no compromise. I also have a William Tell recording on LP with just a hint from my 3BX dynamically will challenge almost anyones sound system with over 65 db in dynamic range. Its a Klipsch Jubilee demonstration recording for sure. But your TT should be rumble and wow and flutter free for sure.
 
twiiii said:
I still have my 3BX DBX. We had a seminar from DBX and I bought one of the first ones from our initial order from the factory back in the early 70's......
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Reviews like these and hearing it myself are why I've been searching! While ive got some classical music on LP the vast majority of my non digital music is 78rpm records. My main focus has been on improving listenability in my space and maaaaybe digitization for personal use if I can do the job any justice
 
I would be looking for digital Apps to improve your 78's. You will need away to down load the music to your computer with a good AAC then feed the computer with the appropriate App. You need a great mono cartridge that will feed a good Cartridge pre-amp with a HDNI or UBC output to feed the computer. Then that App will do the job better than the 3 BX with a program EQ. You might have to set a good record cleaner and then do like the Brit do float the record with distilled water to further reduce distortions and noises. It was easier for me to buy LP and CD reissues and then work on the sound quality in my case. Time Life had all the big band performances I needed at the time of the 78's. I wasn't much into classical for that period of time. Toscanini and I aren't on good terms. All of his stuff has basically been reissues, too or was in the past on LP.
 
Hey I appreciate the candor. Im gonna look into that British method you mentioned do you mind going into a bit more detail? At the end of the day I just dont think I can do as well in an app as I can with plug and play systems like these. Teams of researches spent loads of time perfecting these systems. Its also way easier to turn a knob and listen than do A/B comparisons on computer. Im also just not aware of any software remotely affordable to the average hobbyists, while if I remain patient I should be able to snag used units for cheap eventually . Gotta get lucky sometimes! Also if you dont mind recommending a specific software id be happy to take a closer look. I could be dead wrong about ease of use....
 
There is also the Phase Linear 1000 Autocorrelator dynamic range recovery and noise reduction system. I had one of these years ago. They're very subtle. It takes a little time to master, but I did like it. I thought it had a more natural sounding approach compared to the DBX BX3, etc. I do have a multi channel rack mount DBX compandor that I was given, but haven't messed with it yet.
 
These are certainly great toys!

IMHO, the benefits 'require' a 3 BX or above to get enough finesse.

3 BX and 4 BX with the impact restoration are pretty cool.

You know, Parks Audio or The Sugar Cube device could really benefit if they added this feature.

I am imagining your 78s via a device with range expansion, impact restoration, surface noise reduction, and maybe even accounting for wow & flutter.

Maybe I should go invent one!

Thanks for this thread.
 
Well the Brits cleaned their Lp's thorughly back in the 70's or 80's using something like a Nitty Gritty or Disc washer. Then after drying with a hair dryer or something similar or hanging them out to air dry they would use a Zero Stat to get rid of the static. Making sure their platter was clean they would place the LP on the platter and then spray the LP with a fine mist of water or in some cases almost flood the record with distilled water with a bit record cleaning fluid added from Cecil Watts. Then the would choose an appropriate cartridge with a long cantilever to track the groves without the water getting in the cartridge of choice whle either just listening or dubbing te Record to tape. I do that with pre-owned LP's that have have backgrond or surface noise as I dub the LP to a CD. MY phono pre-amp has a digital output to feed the CD recorder directly or I can use the analog out put to feed my signal processors to add dynamic range and then then the program EQ for touching up short comings here or there. I use Groove Washer products for a quick clean up using their G2 Fluid. But if the LP needs a thorough cleaning I fire up my VPI model 17 RCM and use Groove washer G3 fluid designed for RCM's and then using the machines vacuum I remove off the fluid finished by a second wash using distilled water and vacuuming again. . I spot check the record sonically and if there is still a bit of static or signs of miss tracking then I just lightly mist the record while dubbing to CD. Living in a very dry climate I suppose I have to mist more often than others would. Especially during hot spring and Summer and and early fall when temps are still in the mid 90's. Even with a humidifier set at 45% I may ave to mist the record as it is being dubbed.
 
If you want to see a thorough explanations on how to clean records get on You Tube and Look for the "Lets clean a Record" site or blog. He is very thorough and explains the pros and cons of different cleaning methods and different chemicals used today. Re really believes in Mechanical cleaners and the use of electrostatic cleaners, too. "Michael Fremer" site called "Tracking Angle" also has reviews and tests of electrostatic cleaning machines. Between the two you will be very well informed and up to date.
 
twiiii said:
If you want to see a thorough explanations on how to clean records get on You Tube and Look for the "Lets clean a Record" site or blog. He is very thorough and explains the pros and cons of different cleaning methods and different chemicals used today. Re really believes in Mechanical cleaners and the use of electrostatic cleaners, too. "Michael Fremer" site called "Tracking Angle" also has reviews and tests of electrostatic cleaning machines. Between the two you will be very well informed and up to date.
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Thanks for your post, I'll check that out.
I've been using an ultra sonic cleaner now for sometime and does a pretty good job. Its surprising how much can come off of a brand new fresh out of the sleeve record before even being played.
 
Enophile said:
I am imagining your 78s via a device with range expansion, impact restoration, surface noise reduction, and maybe even accounting for wow & flutter....
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You and I are on the same wavelength!
Here's what I've come up with so far with the understanding I still need to look into the other folks suggestions for NR and Expansion...
3dbx I or II Range Expander
120x Subharmonic Synth
3xxx something video Impact Restoration name escapes me....
KLH Transient Noise Eliminator and Dynamic Noise Filter-Highly recommended by an OP here on AK who used this system with his 78s


Twiii,
as far as record cleaning goes I went and invested $100 in a used ultrasonic unit and mix up my own surfacent. Been beyond happy with results to the point im considering trying to take A/B pictures with a microscope. Have never heard of using water on the record during playback but I can understand the logic!! As far as I am aware such a technique isn't being used at all at the archival level here in the states.

Lavane,
Ultrasonics are amazing! When I do 78s in the bath the cloud of nasty that comes off them when you press the switch is unbelievable. 100 years of grit and grime.....30 minute cycles usually 3 cycles before the water stops clouding



Painttoad,
Looked into the sae 5000(barely) and noticed a drastic price difference between 5000A and regular 5000. Did they just improve the performance that much or is it something else? For 70 bucks or so I'd be silly not to give it a shot
 
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they say the 5000a is an updated version but i had one of each here at the same time that got the same treatment and i couldn't tell the difference.

i can imagine that it would truly benefit 78s. with their reduced fidelity you could turn the threshold higher and not lose the quality to the extent that you do on lps.
 
Salutations para Sactown, midwest78man. Have owned a dbx 118 Dynamic Range Enhancer since '84. Made a dbx 1BX Series II Dynamic Range Expander curiosity purchase two decades ago. 118 has Gearslutz Stich 333's Burr-Brown upgrades, & continues to serve as moi's valve-esque emulator (does wonders on Steely Dan's "Katy Lied"). ... 1BXII needed one channel input re-soldered. Has a vintage studio EQ presentation from its' JRC 4558 op-amps, once inner controls are aligned (used Hafler rear-channel speaker to adjust stereo separation). Read on another blog to adjust EXPANSION & TRANSITION LEVEL to where four yellow LED's illuminate with no signal present (roughly 1.3, or 30%, on EXPANSION, & third notch from left on TRANSITION LEVEL). Best results are achieved by plugging preamp or receiver feed into FROM PREAMP TAPE OUTPUT on PREAMP OR RECEIVER input, & sending processed signal back via TO TAPE RECORDER INPUT on TAPE RECORDER output. If you desire a gain boost, utilize PRE button on front-panel EXPANDER access, with MONITOR on SOURCE. ... A 1BXII should suffice for digitizing your 78 collection, midwest78man, with added benefit of click-n-pop minimization from vinyl source, along with reducing turntable rumble (as does 118). Have never suffered breathing nor pumping aural anomalies from either unit. A Pioneer RG-9 Dynamic Processor could fit the bill too. But you'd be stuck with late 70s vintage Pioneer EQ, courtesy designer Robert Grodinsky. Bummaire extrordinare, ya know? ... 73s para Sactown
 
i've got an rg 2(blue display version of the rg 9) the difference between it and a 3bx is night and day. 3bx beats it.

i really wouldn't recommend spending the money on an rg 2(9) unless you've got the matching pioneer to go with it.

the rg 9 had a green display and champagne faceplate. the rg2 is silver with a blue display that matches the 'blue line' and 'fluoroscan line'

rg 2 and 9 were both from the early 80s, not the 70s.



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trying out the rg2 with my sx3900

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this is my vinyl only setup. these units will all stay together as long as i own them and i if i do ever sell, it all goes together. except maybe the lab400.

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i will add that it's a good idea to deal with the tantalum caps in a dbx 3bx series 1. there are a bunch in the signal path and a few in the power supply.
 
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