DECCA OF ENGLAND LONDON MAROON PHONO CARTRIDGE

[cafe latte]

My memory is that armatures also were treated cryogenicaly, which hardened them and improved response.
For those who haven't owned a Decca or perused their literature, they are unlike conventional cartridges that have the stylus fixed at close to a right angle in a cantilever which is in a damper suspension to allow it to wiggle. The Decca, by contrast, has the stylus at the tip of a thin piece of metal that points down from the cartridge, and the stylus is restrained from being swept away by the movement of the record by a nylon cord. This piece is called the armature, and because it is ferrous, when it moves, it disturbs the magnetic field which three coils read in a completely different electromagnetic scheme than close to all other cartridges, which is why the Decca only has three output pins ( and the perversity of Decca in refusing to add a fourth pin connected to the third pin so that normal humans could use it without lengthy explanation (and to make them normal size - they wanted you to use sleeves and solder to them(!!!!!)) goes some distance in explaining why the greatest cartridge in the world never got much headway.

That said, I think (and it is easy for me to say because I'm not putting my money up) that, given the prices Deccas go for, twenty grand would be amortized fairly quickly.

The armature was not hardened, I have the whole spec of them. John used to recieve them formed up but without the bend and he bent them up, if they were harened they would crack when he bent them.
Chris

 

[Nat]

I haven't checked, but Decca did talk about it in their literature, if memory serves. It may not have been to harden them but for some other purpose.

 

[cafe latte]

I haven't checked, but Decca did talk about it in their literature, if memory serves. It may not have been to harden them but for some other purpose.

With barrels cryo de-stresses the metal, cant see what purpose it would serve here though.
Chris

 

[MisterDK]

Hope you all don’t mind me asking this here..
Of the used, less expensive Decca/London carts we often see on ebay, are there some that models should be avoided? Or, can any of them be “freshened up” to sound the same as the better models (assuming no major faults)?

 

[Nat]

Here is my experience: I had a grey bodied Londons, and maybe a blue (not sure where these fall relative to the Maroon and the Export). Since they were used when I got them, and all the original models are used now, stylus condition is an obvious factor in how they sound, but the condition of the tieback string - the nylon thread that wraps around the tip and keeps it from being pulled forward - has a big effect also. I think I had to tease mine back into better position on one of them and it sounded much better. I also slid the top off them and looked around - I noticed that one of the magnets was out of place, and I put it back, and I think one of the coils was loose. I used Weldbond to fix them in place - it will hold, but is easily removed, with on interaction with the plastic parts. I also found some of the screws needed tightening - I pushed the plastic bits into what looked like the right locations (at least they were symmetrical) and screwed them down - not super tight since the plastic is soft. There is a rat's warren of rolled up wire in there - I didn't know what to do with it. I slid the top back on and ran a thin bead of Weldbond around all the edges of the folded metal case. All this damped it somewhat and stiffened it up, and it sounded better.
I think some of the well known variability of the Decca Londons is simply the result of bizarrely haphazard construction - as far as I could tell, the magnet was held in place by its own attractive force, and a good jolt could shift it, likely leading to changes in sound, and the tin can case was just an accident waiting to happen.

 

[MisterDK]

Here is my experience: I had a grey bodied Londons, and maybe a blue (not sure where these fall relative to the Maroon and the Export). Since they were used when I got them, and all the original models are used now, stylus condition is an obvious factor in how they sound, but the condition of the tieback string - the nylon thread that wraps around the tip and keeps it from being pulled forward - has a big effect also. I think I had to tease mine back into better position on one of them and it sounded much better. I also slid the top off them and looked around - I noticed that one of the magnets was out of place, and I put it back, and I think one of the coils was loose. I used Weldbond to fix them in place - it will hold, but is easily removed, with on interaction with the plastic parts. I also found some of the screws needed tightening - I pushed the plastic bits into what looked like the right locations (at least they were symmetrical) and screwed them down - not super tight since the plastic is soft. There is a rat's warren of rolled up wire in there - I didn't know what to do with it. I slid the top back on and ran a thin bead of Weldbond around all the edges of the folded metal case. All this damped it somewhat and stiffened it up, and it sounded better.
I think some of the well known variability of the Decca Londons is simply the result of bizarrely haphazard construction - as far as I could tell, the magnet was held in place by its own attractive force, and a good jolt could shift it, likely leading to changes in sound, and the tin can case was just an accident waiting to happen.

I know they have a reputation for great sound - but this seems pretty bad..

 

[cafe latte]

Here is my experience: I had a grey bodied Londons, and maybe a blue (not sure where these fall relative to the Maroon and the Export). Since they were used when I got them, and all the original models are used now, stylus condition is an obvious factor in how they sound, but the condition of the tieback string - the nylon thread that wraps around the tip and keeps it from being pulled forward - has a big effect also. I think I had to tease mine back into better position on one of them and it sounded much better. I also slid the top off them and looked around - I noticed that one of the magnets was out of place, and I put it back, and I think one of the coils was loose. I used Weldbond to fix them in place - it will hold, but is easily removed, with on interaction with the plastic parts. I also found some of the screws needed tightening - I pushed the plastic bits into what looked like the right locations (at least they were symmetrical) and screwed them down - not super tight since the plastic is soft. There is a rat's warren of rolled up wire in there - I didn't know what to do with it. I slid the top back on and ran a thin bead of Weldbond around all the edges of the folded metal case. All this damped it somewhat and stiffened it up, and it sounded better.
I think some of the well known variability of the Decca Londons is simply the result of bizarrely haphazard construction - as far as I could tell, the magnet was held in place by its own attractive force, and a good jolt could shift it, likely leading to changes in sound, and the tin can case was just an accident waiting to happen.

Old Decca were poorly made, they were renowned for QC problems. That said I have never seen one where the magnet had no glue. The magnet needs to go the right way round too. The screws inside are for calibration they must nulot be touched unless you know what you are doing as this alters the position of thr coil and messing with these screws even just making them all the same you can end up with a mono cart.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Hope you all don’t mind me asking this here..
Of the used, less expensive Decca/London carts we often see on ebay, are there some that models should be avoided? Or, can any of them be “freshened up” to sound the same as the better models (assuming no major faults)?

All can be fixed if the armature is good, all will need tieback, armature damping replaced and calibration for sure along with a probable retip.
Chris

 

[Nat]

MIsterDK and cafe latte: my intention was to give some reason for the dubious reputation of Deccas. I believe this reputation was almost entirely due to the Londons and their cheap construction. The mono and ffss cartridges are much better built, as I hope the later (and much more expensive) models are. I also wanted to give some sense of what could be done to ameliorate some of the problems. Obviously experienced professionals are the ideal people to do any refurbishing, but not all of us will choose that option, or can afford to.
I wasn't suggesting that the whole thing be disassembled, but I was suggesting that if things are obviously out of kilter, they can be improved using care and common sense. As to the tightening of screws - I don't think there is any actual likelihood of screws run into soft and compressible plastic still having the same torque value as they had several decades ago. So if they are loose, tightening them can hardly hurt - if the tension was so critical, Decca should have used metal (actually, they should have used metal regardless). I believe the compliance of the armature is set by the flexibility of the metal, not the specific torque of the screws. But I am no expert.
Certainly my intention was not to say anything negative about the sound of a properly sorted out Decca - they are the best cartridges I have ever heard, and by a wide margin. The can't track everything without distortion, but for those who appreciated their virtues, the occasional mistracking is worth enduring in exchange for the most realistic dynamics available.

 

[ETI_5000]

It has to be said that for many years, up until their deaths in the early-90’s, the Garrott brothers (my fellow Tasmanians, for a while, and the world's first ever aftermarket retippers) used to be the world experts on Decca London cartridge improvements and retipping. In fact, they received rave reviews from people like Ken Kessler of Hi-Fi News for their improvements, which according to a young European chap who worked with them for a time, involved blueprinting them and improving some of the more slip-shod aspects of their construction, as well as fitting line-contact tips to them.

They were certainly unique designs, but they sounded so good, Decca got some things right, if not quality control! Whether or not the current ‘Garrott Brothers’ retipping business in Melbourne does the same work, I don’t know, but they certainly have much of the info from the original brothers, so it wouldn’t be beyond the bounds of possibility.

 

[cafe latte]

T

It has to be said that for many years, up until their deaths in the early-90’s, the Garrott brothers (my fellow Tasmanians, for a while, and the world's first ever aftermarket retippers) used to be the world experts on Decca London cartridge improvements and retipping. In fact, they received rave reviews from people like Ken Kessler of Hi-Fi News for their improvements, which according to a young European chap who worked with them for a time, involved blueprinting them and improving some of the more slip-shod aspects of their construction, as well as fitting line-contact tips to them.

They were certainly unique designs, but they sounded so good, Decca got some things right, if not quality control! Whether or not the current ‘Garrott Brothers’ retipping business in Melbourne does the same work, I don’t know, but they certainly have much of the info from the original brothers, so it wouldn’t be beyond the bounds of possibility.

The key with Decca is to secure often loose cools can calibrate them to decent separation. This to get perfect is a bit of trial and error which takes TIME, this is the reason it never got done properly.
Other stuff is magnet position and positioning of the armature perfectly in the coils, all I have seen way out especially the latter.
They were a good design just badly put together, there was no magic from Garrett brothers they just redid them properly.
Chris
Chris

 

[Nat]

Give the Garrott brothers credit, though, for releasing the magic in the Deccas - in the US, at least, they had a terrible reputation based on their very spotty sound quality due to the issues you mention, the widespread enthusiasm for low tracking forces and high trackability, neither of which are Decca strengths, the lack of suitable tonearms in the consumer marketplace and mind set, and a quite negative Consumer Reports rating (which, if memory serves, did say some nice things about the sound, but complained about tracking, susceptibility to microphonics, maybe even hum, and the perverse three pin hook up arrangement).
The possibility of a reliably good sounding Decca was something of a game changer, and the Garrotts were responsible. Obviously someone else might have done the same thing, but no one did.

 

[tabarddn51]

Hi, You should cheek out the Eff Mass of the Pioneer arm, a quick serch did not reveal it. But one guy is using it with a V15, The V15 cart need a low Eff Mass arm. The Decca a High Eff mass arm.

Cheers

 

[Nat]

My impression is that damping matters more for Deccas than mass, though obviously there are limits. But I believe the Decca International arm was fairly low mass, and many people have reported excellent results with Formula IV arms (probably more with the Mayware with the metal headshell and variable mass than the original JH, which was very low mass).

 

[cafe latte]

Hi, You should cheek out the Eff Mass of the Pioneer arm, a quick serch did not reveal it. But one guy is using it with a V15, The V15 cart need a low Eff Mass arm. The Decca a High Eff mass arm.

Cheers

The Decca needs medium effective mass not high.

 

[cafe latte]

My impression is that damping matters more for Deccas than mass, though obviously there are limits. But I believe the Decca International arm was fairly low mass, and many people have reported excellent results with Formula IV arms (probably more with the Mayware with the metal headshell and variable mass than the original JH, which was very low mass).

All carts need well damped arm and Decca does not need more damping than anything else. This all started due to Decca with a,slack tieback and bottoming out armature sound like a little speaker at the end of the arm. In this case ( faulty cart) people conclude the cart does not work well as it needs a special damped arm when it is simply thr cart needing a service.

 

[Pio1980]

The DECCA carts tend to be highly reactive with the arm and bearings, a viscous coupling to the base pillar parallel to and across the bearings seems to be a requirement for best results.

 

[tabarddn51]

To be correct, some are OK with medium mass, those with a compliance of 15, but they also work very nicely with high mass arms. The Decca with a compliance of under 15, definitely benefit from a high mass arm' Check it out on Korf

Cheers

 

[Nat]

In the seventies, Deccas were variable enough in QC that a damped arm (most of which were unipivots) was a sensible suggestion.

 

[Chevaldebois]

Just this time I will disagree, working on Decca is not the same as other carts, Decca have some odd things you need to know about and they are quite particular to calibrate.
To OP the hum could be a few things, the clips on the slide and the contact dots can oxidise or sometimes the contacts need prising out a bit to get a decent connection. Other reason for hum is the cart is close to EMF, the Decca is not a shielded cart so near a transformer or near a turntable motor that is not shielded again will hum.
The cart will have at least two issues that will need to be addressed to make it work correctly, first for sure the tieback will be slack, if it is slack the armature will be bottoming out and if not then at best you will have music but virtually mono. The armature needs to be in the correct position between the coils and all old Decca will be wrong. Next issue will be the damping rubber that was originally stuck to the base of the stylus holder (what Decca call the cantilever) will have turned to gluey snot and the stylus holder will be resisted correct movement by this goop, most old Decca will need this cleaned up and new rubber to be fitted. When this is done the stylus holder needs to be in the correct position and then the cart correctly calibrated using calibration screws to get correct stereo. Lastly a retip and damping.. Joseph could do a retip but I doubt he would be able to do any of the other things as you need to know Decca intimately and know there querks. It is worth pointing out too that coils on these 40 year old carts co open circuit when you as much as look at them so massive care needs to be taken lifting out coils to do the work. I have spares for this reason and you cant just put a new coil in it must be fitted in same orientation as others, like I said Decca are a bit special. Also worth mentioning that servicing a Decca the OP should get a line contact stylus, but also get the internals damped which will take the cart he has up to super gold specs.
I would be talking to John Wright in the UK and nobody else as there are very few of us who know how to do Decca and even fewer who have spares for them.
Chris

And it is exactly what I did: John Wright Audio Services in the UK completely overhauled and re-tipped my Decca Maroon with a line contact stylus. It wasn’t cheap but I am pleased with the result. Mr Wright is going to retire very soon if he hasn’t already so I am lucky that he accepted to work on my cart. Good advice Chris, thank you!