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Denon DL103M, the other fantastic 103

doctor fuse said:
I have a standard 103 I got in a trade for an Ortofon I ended up with for free (so a no-cost cartridge!) and am using it in the bedroom. Nice sounds, but not a great tracker (at the inner grooves especially). I am curious how it will improve with a retip. Maybe a boron cantilever and nude Shibata or ML.
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My 103 is at the end of a heavy arm and tracks beautifully at 2.5g.
 
boron_cant_(12-29-21)_i1yqLXTFR8LAqV1AcPgoFC.jpg

:thumbsup:
 
vinyldavid said:
I consider the 103 one of the worst sounding moving coil cartridges (and one of the worst carts aimed at the audiophile market in I've heard in general, other than Sumiko MMs and Ortofon 2Ms and early Shures). The stock 103 I had was veiled, floppy sounding, had poor resolution, sounded overly warm yet forward and didn't have the sort of sound I consider 'good'. The diamond exhibited zero wear under the microscope, and sounded like the other 103s I've heard, so....I trust that mine was operating correctly. It also tracks too heavy from stock-I am uncomfortable tracking at anything over 2 grams (really, anything over 1.5g-I wasn't in love with my Lyra's 1.8g VTF but I love the sound!) unless there's some warranted reason to do so (skips, vintage disc playback, etc)-cartridge suspension is not a warranted reason for daily heavy tracking. I used the 103 in a Jelco SA-750E with a 14g headshell and an Audio Technica AT1009 with the same headshell. More than enough mass. I also used the recommended Denon AU-320 and 340 SUTs along with real step up circuits in my Cambridge Audio Duo Alva. I couldn't make the 103 work well. Perhaps it would work well in a system that needs a veiled cartridge with a slightly forward sonic balance but without any of the actual resolution and sound quality I expect. The long cantilever and spherical diamond are two things I feel have a LOT to do with the sound.

My suspicion is that the 103 was popular because it was rugged, probably better sounding than other stereo cartridges of 1964, but like everything in audio, we have evolved and not everything vaunted in the past (in fact, most things vaunted in the past) are severely problematic when inserted into a high performance stereo system. The stock 103 put me off Moving Coil cartridges for almost five years-much to my dismay when I started listening to them again.

No one in the US recording or broadcast industries I've heard of used the 103.

The 103D I have sounds much much much better, and tracks lighter.

My preferred cartridges I have in my collection are my Lyra Kleos, Denon DL-305 (with a sapphire cantilever and FG2), Stanton Epoch II HZ9S, SoundSmith The Voice, Stanton 881S (the favorite of many mastering engineers, who are far far far more critical than radio broadcasters!), Audio Technica AT150MLX, Benz Micro Ace HOMC, Stanton 681EEE-S, Technics EPS310MC. I have a few dozen cartridges which are supposed to be nice that I haven't listened to yet. I've heard great things come out of friends' Dynavector DV20X2H, Audio Technica AOC9XSH Benz Micro LP-S, Sumiko Alchemist IIIs, and Transfiguration Orpheus. What I'm getting at is-I have heard a great many cartridges and the 103 doesn't hold up. I have similar thoughts about the 103R. This obsession with spherical stylii is frustrating.
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If anything the 103 is bright not veiled actually thr frequency plot is almost totally flat. Rebodied and retipped the 103 is a wonderful cart, stock with 30g of effective mass arm. The Jelco is 14g with a 9g headshell so you only had 19g effective mass you needed another 10g.
Chris
 
doctor fuse said:
I have a standard 103 I got in a trade for an Ortofon I ended up with for free (so a no-cost cartridge!) and am using it in the bedroom. Nice sounds, but not a great tracker (at the inner grooves especially). I am curious how it will improve with a retip. Maybe a boron cantilever and nude Shibata or ML.
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Boron and nude Micro Ridge sound wonderful.
A good retipper can alter the compliance too if required. The 103 on thr right arm with a few mods can sound amazing.
Chris
 
adnick said:
Most consider the basic 103 an excellent tracking cartridge, it was designed and used heavily in the recording & playback industry so I’m not sure what going on with yours….

however, changing it to an elliptical and adding weight is a time honored tradition, that should also improve your tracking :dunno:

I’ve got a VAS basic 103 with weight and elliptical it’s a very nice sounding cartridge….


Andy
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Me too. I have it on medium compliance arm and it's still the best cartridge I have.
 
cafe latte said:
If anything the 103 is bright not veiled actually thr frequency plot is almost totally flat. Rebodied and retipped the 103 is a wonderful cart, stock with 30g of effective mass arm. The Jelco is 14g with a 9g headshell so you only had 19g effective mass you needed another 10g.
Chris
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I was using a 14g arm with a 14g headshell-the Audio Technica LS13, for 27g (I mistyped earlier by 1 gram). Close enough to 30. The Audio Technica is a chunky arm, too. 20g? I think. So that would be a 33 gram affair.

The frequency plot is flat given whatever test record they were using, but a single frequency response plot doesn't tell you about the resolution or overall detail retrieval nor transient response of a device. Same as sine sweeps are useful information for speaker evaluation, but it doesn't tell you about time alignment, speed, dispersion, impedance, or port tuning (unless egregiously poorly designed).

Once you rebody and retip a cart with a non-original style diamond, it's no longer a 103. My Denon DL-305 is only modified due to the hollow boron cantilever being broken. Otherwise I stick to stock for evaluating cartridges as a whole.
 
Blackdog61 said:
My 103 is at the end of a heavy arm and tracks beautifully at 2.5g.
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Hmmm, it really tracks as well as a line contact (or even an elliptical) in the inner grooves? To my ears there are problems, and from what I read this is unavoidable because of the physics of the dimensions of the conical tip.
 
doctor fuse said:
Hmmm, it really tracks as well as a line contact (or even an elliptical) in the inner grooves? To my ears there are problems, and from what I read this is unavoidable because of the physics of the dimensions of the conical tip.
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That is hard to say because I don’t have a 103 with those stylus profiles. I do have some MM and MI that work very well on my AR but not so well on the Pioneer so a direct comparison would be difficult. I had some good high compliance cartridges on a medium mass 3009 II unimproved arm which tracked well but we’re a bit blah to listen to. We listen to a heavy rotation of jazz and some classical, pop and rock and I believe the 103 tracks as well or better than anything I’ve had. It would be nice to know the EM on this Pioneer PL-41 arm but I can’t find a number. Everything I’ve found online indicates that it is over 30g and a high compliance Shure didn’t work at all so I believe it.

The 103 is smooth, dynamic, has great low end and is very enjoyable. I have no doubt the M version is better.
 
vinyldavid said:
I was using a 14g arm with a 14g headshell-the Audio Technica LS13, for 27g (I mistyped earlier by 1 gram). Close enough to 30. The Audio Technica is a chunky arm, too. 20g? I think. So that would be a 33 gram affair.

The frequency plot is flat given whatever test record they were using, but a single frequency response plot doesn't tell you about the resolution or overall detail retrieval nor transient response of a device. Same as sine sweeps are useful information for speaker evaluation, but it doesn't tell you about time alignment, speed, dispersion, impedance, or port tuning (unless egregiously poorly designed).

Once you rebody and retip a cart with a non-original style diamond, it's no longer a 103. My Denon DL-305 is only modified due to the hollow boron cantilever being broken. Otherwise I stick to stock for evaluating cartridges as a whole.
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I have tested stock 103 myself they are ruler flat. I have over 100 carts and tested thousands due to my work and set up correctly the 103 sounds fab, great separation and great dynamics and highs.
Retipped and rebodied they are stunning.
Chris
 
cafe latte said:
I have tested stock 103 myself they are ruler flat. I have over 100 carts and tested thousands due to my work and set up correctly the 103 sounds fab, great separation and great dynamics and highs.
Retipped and rebodied they are stunning.
Chris
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Again, a frequency response sweep doesn’t indicate much. Both the JBL 4367 and McIntosh ML-2C are relatively flat and both sound terrible, wheras my Dynaudio Confidence C4’s are also near ruler flat and sound incredible. One sine sweep doesn’t indicate much.

I own about 150 cartridges and have set up about 250. Not quite your thousands, but a representative sample.
 
vinyldavid said:
Again, a frequency response sweep doesn’t indicate much. Both the JBL 4367 and McIntosh ML-2C are relatively flat and both sound terrible, wheras my Dynaudio Confidence C4’s are also near ruler flat and sound incredible. One sine sweep doesn’t indicate much.

I own about 150 cartridges and have set up about 250. Not quite your thousands, but a representative sample.
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I agree flat does not mean great sounding, but I feel your 103 or related equipment has a problem. I have heard just about every cart even the odd 50k DS audio light sensor cart ( not a fan). I have heard and tested 5,10, 20k carts from various manufacturers. Heard thr best of vintage and the best from today on various turntables ( I have 8). The Denon is not the best of course but set up correctly it is up there way above its price point and retipped and bodied as many people do it is way way above its price point.
I can only imagine yours is faulty or not set up correctly as the 103s I have tested are ruler flat and have clean extended highs which is totally opposite to what you claim, the 103 is anything but muted.
The only issue I note with thrm is the bass can be a little wrong when compliance match is wrong, but that is expected.
I always have one of my tables with a 103r even though I have thr choice of carts costing many many times more.
Chris
 
One thing worth pointing out. A 103M has very little in common with a 103 or 103R. Diamonds, cantilevers, winding architecture, and body are all markedly different. The only thing that translates between the two is the 40 ohm internal impedance, and the low output level of the 103M combined with that high internal impedance makes it a tough cookie to match a SUT too.
 
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Mister Pig said:
One thing worth pointing out. A 103M has very little in common with a 103 or 103R. Diamonds, cantilevers, winding architecture, and body are all markedly different. The only thing that translates between the two is the 40 ohm internal impedance, and the low output level of the 103M combined with that high internal impedance makes it a tough cookie to match a SUT too.
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Very true and probably what kept the 103M from being as ubiquitous as the basic 103….Folks with high gain phono amps, like the EAR clones with 12AX7s, can probably get away with a standard SUT like an AU 320, although I’m sure there are trade-offs :dunno:


Andy
 
adnick said:
Very true and probably what kept the 103M from being as ubiquitous as the basic 103….Folks with high gain phono amps, like the EAR clones with 12AX7s, can probably get away with a standard SUT like an AU 320, although I’m sure there are trade-offs :dunno:


Andy
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I wondered about that because the with the 103 into that setup the gain is seldom above about 8:00. If my funds were better I might try one. The plan is to buy another and send this in for some new tread when it’s worn out.
 
Blackdog61 said:
I wondered about that because the with the 103 into that setup the gain is seldom above about 8:00. If my funds were better I might try one. The plan is to buy another and send this in for some new tread when it’s worn out.
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Well sometime when I’m not so lazy, :no: there’s a Denon AU 320 on one system and an EAR clone on another, just have to unhook and gather to the 103M system
 
cafe latte said:
If anything the 103 is bright not veiled actually thr frequency plot is almost totally flat. Rebodied and retipped the 103 is a wonderful cart, stock with 30g of effective mass arm. The Jelco is 14g with a 9g headshell so you only had 19g effective mass you needed another 10g.
Chris
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I’m listening to Dire Straits’ Brothers In Arms and I wouldn’t say the 103 is bright. Knopfler’s guitar has plenty of bite and the top end sounds natural with good extension but isn’t at all bright. The low end is pretty amazing but I’ve got no experience with cartridges that cost several house payments. Keep in mind that there isn’t a transistor in sight so the tubes might be a factor. I consider the DL 103 to be a bargain.
 
Mr Boochie said:
Moving coil AT?
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MM. I just don't need to spend. I would love to, but $200 would be my limit.....Ortofon 2M Black would be my pick for the DP 47 F I am using, and like very much......lotta beans though.

I only have $10 in the Denon.......(No pic, I don't want to hijack the thread like I already have)
 
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