Denon DP80 vs Technics SL1200 mk3- any difference with the same tonearm???

[Onebean]

I have both of these tables. The DP80 is recently back from a full rebuild by PBN Audio. The SL1200 is a low hour table used only for listening, no DJ action. Having both of these tables, I’m wondering how different or similar they would sound, with the same tonearm and cartridge? I’ve read comments in articles stating the SL1200 with an arm upgrade, is very close in performance to the SP10 mk3. I’ve also read the DP80 doesn’t give up much ground to the SP10 mk3. I’d be curious to hear what your speculation or experience tells you.

 

[3dfxman]

I would speculate that the SL1200 MK3 is no match for a DP80. JMO.

But both of those tables are so nice to a point of dimensioning returns where I wouldn't expect them to sound different. It would all be up to compliance of the cartridge at that point.

 

[flavio81]

No contest, DP80 is on another higher class altogether.

 

[steven94]

I recently acquired a DP 75 with a DA 402 arm. Just love this TT, Next to it sits a technics 1700 mkII. Same arm and motor as 1200 but with auto return, electronic cuing and suspended. As much as I like and enjoy the 1700 it's not a fair comparison the Denon wins by a long shot. The two arms are not comparable ,the 402 is light years ahead. I have never heard the same tonearm on both TT's so I can't help you there. But as quiet as the 1700 is,and it is, it's no match for the Denon. They're both quartz locked so their speed is there but the Denon seems more precise and the music is slightly livelier. If they both had the same arm and cart I would defiantly pick the Denon no doubt. I have read here on AK that people have put other arms on a 1200 with great results. One last thing I had a Pickering XLZ on the 1700 moved it over to the Denon. I was quite surprised how much better it sounded mostly due to the arm. Even my wife asked me if I got a new cart?

 

[Onebean]

@steven94 thank you for the direct comparison, and echoing what @flavio81 and @3dfxman man stated. I just bought an SME 309, and it will be mounted on my DK110 plinth with the DP80 drive. Now I need to decide if I try my Dynavector DV20x2L or my rebuilt Grado.

 

[steven94]

Onebean you will be very happy with that setup.Let us know what you think of it. Pabst on tap is pretty dam good.

 

[Onebean]

Pabst on tap is pretty dam good.

It's my favorite!

 

[flavio81]

Pabst on tap is pretty dam good.

I prefer "Papst on idler wheel"

 

[adnick]

Prefer my Papst in belt, idler pulley, belt, heavy platter (intermediate idler, not drive)

 

[flavio81]

Prefer my Papst in belt, idler pulley, belt, heavy platter (intermediate idler, not drive)
View attachment 2836266

Does that TT use idler wheel + belt, a-la Thorens TD124? Which model is it? Can't recognize it. Looks huge though.

 

[adnick]

No not like the Thorens it’s a Fairchild 412 and uses the same drive principle as the Fairchild recorders, motor drives an intermediate pulley with a belt then another belt from the intermediate pulley to the platter, and the platter is filled with plaster….a few photos of what’s inside:

.

 

[Onebean]

Look at the size of that bearing!!!

 

[adnick]

Look at the size of that bearing!!!

Sorry to sidetrack the thread, have a DP 75 myself… This Fairchild belt drive is the only BD that sounds like an idler, and there’s one above this one, a Fairchild 750

On the early 412s, like this one, the metal cage has a bottom section and becomes a very ridged box, later on they made the cage smaller, dropped the bottom and stopped filling the platter, to save money I guess

VR
Andy

 

[Onebean]

@adnick I'm very interested in this design. I could see this design concept being adapted to DIY turntables. Is there a pulley on the top side of the mounting plate that has a belt that spins the platter? I assume the bottom pulley, and the top pulley are locked to the shaft that goes through a bearing? Any idea what is in that bearing stack? What do you attribute the idler PRAT to?

 

[adnick]

@adnick I'm very interested in this design. I could see this design concept being adapted to DIY turntables. Is there a pulley on the top side of the mounting plate that has a belt that spins the platter? I assume the bottom pulley, and the top pulley are locked to the shaft that goes through a bearing? Any idea what is in that bearing stack? What do you attribute the idler PRAT to?

Yes the pulley shaft goes through to the top, and the top pulley drives the platter and it’s an eccentric design so one can adjust speed. The bearing shaft is massive, believe it also gets smaller on later models, along with an extremely heavy platter for a belt drive…they have huge amounts of torque, come up to speed immediately, much like the huge idlers, they were one of the few belt drives actually used in broadcasting.

Fairchild did just about everything in the extreme early on in their existence, the advertised that the 412 exceeded broadcast standards by 100% (W&F/Rumble) they even advertised vertical as well lateral rumble….

There’s a steel ball bearing at the bottom of the shaft well, I’ve replaced mine with a plastic ball (Derlin) and reduced the numbers even more. Here’s some info:

 

[nailer]

I have both of these tables. The DP80 is recently back from a full rebuild by PBN Audio. The SL1200 is a low hour table used only for listening, no DJ action. Having both of these tables, I’m wondering how different or similar they would sound, with the same tonearm and cartridge? I’ve read comments in articles stating the SL1200 with an arm upgrade, is very close in performance to the SP10 mk3. I’ve also read the DP80 doesn’t give up much ground to the SP10 mk3. I’d be curious to hear what your speculation or experience tells you.

The only way to actually know is compare the two tables using the same tonearm and cartridge. Anything else is idle speculation.

 

[Onebean]

@nailer idle speculation or direct speculation (as in idler drive or direct drive). My weak attempt at humor.

 

[flavio81]

No not like the Thorens it’s a Fairchild 412 and uses the same drive principle as the Fairchild recorders, motor drives an intermediate pulley with a belt then another belt from the intermediate pulley to the platter, and the platter is filled with plaster….a few photos of what’s inside:

Thanks for the pics!! This bearing is massive!!

@adnickWhat do you attribute the idler PRAT to?

My bet is on "torque"

they have huge amounts of torque, come up to speed immediately, much like the huge idlers,

Aha... the puzzle is asxsembled little by little... torque...
Some questions:
Is there any watts rating on the turntable or the motor? Preferrably on the motor, or maybe an amperes/volt rating.
Is this a 2-phase or a 3-phase motor? (if it has two sets of coils it is 2-phase)
EDIT: I see it has its own AC waveform generator!!

they were one of the few belt drives actually used in broadcasting.

Thank you very much for this information, I always wondered if there existed any belt-driven broadcasting turntable. There's the EMT 928 (= souped-up Thorens TD125) but that one is an underpowered little dwarf compared to the EMT idlers. This Fairchild is on another level...

 

[Bkphoto]

I’m a “flying saucer guy”

 

[flavio81]

I’m a “flying saucer guy”

Is that the DP-3000?

Awesome machine. There's a relationship between those early Denon DD turntables and the TTS-2500/3000, Sony's first DD motor. So much that I wonder who invented it.

To be more concrete, Sony's TTS-2500, Technics SP-10, and Denon DP-5000 came at almost the same time (it seems Sony was the earliest to actually sell a DD turntable in Japan).

Both the Sony and the Denon use a really similar motor: An AC motor where the rotor is a copper cup, driven at 60 (or 50) hertz and using voltage to vary the motor speed. The control system is really similar. They (Sony and Denon) are radically different to Technics' motor and control system etc.

Moreover the DP-5000 introduced the speed measurement via using a magnetic head and a magnetic track imprinted in the platter (see picture). Which is something that Sony would introduce in their next generation of DD turntables!!!

So perhaps there was a collaboration between Sony and Denon, or maybe Denon invented it!