Denon vs Grado or Here We Go Again...

[HypnoToad]

I just set up a turntable I bought of thedelihaus, a very nice Technics SL-1700 with a Grado Blue cart.

I have a complete second system now, oh yeah.

But when I realized that the headshells are interchangeable with my SL1200 Mk2 it was on!

Not being able to resist the temptation and never having heard a Grado cart I put it on my 1200 for a test run.

Now connected to my Luxman L-430 amp and my Boston A200's & A150's the sound of the Grado was very enticing.

The Denon DL-110 is fantastic, it has tight bass, smooth mids and silky highs IMO.

But this Grado is different altogether it has more bass, what I would describe as a really mellow midrange and highs.

I tried a few of my favorite albums and although I am sure I am missing a little detail and the soundstage seems a bit reduced it is very easy to listen to.

Especially on some of my older records like Jimi Hendrix Electric Ladyland, I guess it doesn't highlight some of the deficiencies in the production as the Denon does.

I am going to leave it on my 1200 for now and have put the Denon on the 1700.

I am sure I will change back before long but it's like riding in a limo compared to a BMW at this stage.

I am just relaxing and enjoying the ride.

Now if I could get hold of a Grado Platinum.:scratch2:

 

[dualhead]

I'm using a Grado Silver on my 1200. I usually prefer my Shure M97ex, but I'm giving the Grado another try. I have to say that the Grado picks up details the Shure misses. Midrange from the Grado (Vocals, most guitar, etc.) is stellar, but there is something about the Shure that my ears crave. I have a 1700 as well that I'm gonna keep another Shure on to get my fix. They are great tables, glad to see someone else diggin' their Technics decks!

 

[TJLitt]

:lmao:

there you go!! My experience, in reverse. After years with a Red(same essentially as a Blue), I went to the DL-110. The differences between the two sounds that you note are accurate, but I prefer the DL-110's sound, after years of the 'Grado Sound'. I don't notice any downside with Hendrix, or other type of music that you seem to feel the Grado superior on, but I'm starting to suspect that we sometimes just need to change things up a bit.
Overall, the sound of both cartridges is similar(i.e: on the warm side, to use a vague and overdone term). I just really appreciate the detail and soundstage improvements, and certainly get just as good a bass from the Denon, as it breaks in especially. As I stated before, the Grado DOES sound good. I just am not homesick for it, at least not yet.

 

[ARJohn]

ahhhhh , the black hole that is turntables ! Ain't it grand .Currently swapping 2 grados , V15 IV and a AT on 2 different tables and am always discovering something different I like with each combo , going to drive myself crazy I think . Enjoy the "ride" :tresbon:

 

[ChairSpud]

Yep nothin' like interchangeable headshells. The Blue is nice and has the Grado sound but I think to be fair you need at least a Silver or Gold to give the DL-110 a real challenge.

 

[Cornbread]

I also have the Denon DL-110, DL-160, and Grado Blue.

I noticed similar findings to what you described with detail and soundstage. I am all about detail, imaging and depth. That is why I prefer the Denons over the Grado. The interesting thing I found between the 110 and 160 was a slightly better bass response and detail (less congestion).

I think the 160 offers the best of what the 110 and Blue offer. Poorly produced recordings with the 160 make the soundstage appear to come directly from the speakers. This is where I like using the Grado or 3 different Shures I also have. They limit the soundstage directionally and spaciously.

Swapping out cartridges is good for a change of pace but I always find myself going back to the Denons.

 

[BrocLuno]

Different voices for different LPs. Having changeable headshells might drive you crazy, but having a choice of voices for taping or ripping is way cool. Each cartridge has it's merits. Why just mount one and pretend it works with every LP. It ain't so. I have 17 mounted and ready to run, but mostly play about 4 including a Grado GT with new BLACK stylus (I have other Grados, but both the Mrs and I like this one the best for casual listening). When you need that Grado sound, it's right there

 

[TJLitt]

Different voices for different LPs. Having changeable headshells might drive you crazy, but having a choice of voices for taping or ripping is way cool. Each cartridge has it's merits. Why just mount one and pretend it works with every LP. It ain't so. I have 17 mounted and ready to run, but mostly play about 4 including a Grado GT with new BLACK stylus (I have other Grados, but both the Mrs and I like this one the best for casual listening). When you need that Grado sound, it's right there

I see what you're saying, Broc, but don't you find it a pain to re-set the balance and VTF when you swap? I guess that it's a variable thing with us all, but when I sit down to listen to records, I can pull out a wild range of both music styles and vinyl quality. Thus, I'd have to be swapping constantly, mid-session, to optimize matters. Taking the 20 minutes or so to fine tune the VTF each time would be a pain in the a**. So, I try and search for the optimum happy medium. Or, as you put it, I mount one and try to pretend it works for all. I like having the backup Grado mounted, and have a Black mounted to headshell #3. One of those two is going to get a dedicated Mono stylus sometime soon. Still, I hesitate to go swap happy for the reasons above.

 

[iLUVanalog]

the thing that keeps me away from the grado's (except the much higher priced ones) is the hum problem they tend to have with many tables.

i love my Denon DL-110...you can't beat the sound for the price. it is an excellent cartridge and i don't think i'm missing anything by not having a grado.

 

[FinalVinyl]

I gave up on Grado years ago. I was tired of returning them because of the hum problem. Sometimes the hum was louder than the music. I think they made Grados to work only with a few turmtable models.

 

[dualhead]

I've got no hum on my 1210. Even though the Grados are not the perfect match for the Technics arm, the Silver sounds pretty damn good. There are lots of deals to be had on Grado prestige carts because they are switching them out for the new series of prestige carts. I got my Silver for about 110 USD new. Pretty hard to beat.

 

[HypnoToad]

I've got no hum on my 1210. Even though the Grados are not the perfect match for the Technics arm, the Silver sounds pretty damn good. There are lots of deals to be had on Grado prestige carts because they are switching them out for the new series of prestige carts. I got my Silver for about 110 USD new. Pretty hard to beat.

Where did you get it from?

 

[dualhead]

Audiogon? I think.

 

[flat_spin]

I'm currently running a DL-160 on my Planar 2. I was previously using a Grado Gold and, to my ears, the Denon sound better. The dreaded Grado hum was a problem, especially on records that necessitated turning up due to them being pressed very quiet. Try as I might, no amount of tinkering with cart alignment or downforce would get rid of inner groove distortion on 'hot' records. Yes, the Grado had a very pleasing sound, but the Denon trounces it, tracking-wise.

 

[geiman]

I've got no hum on my 1210. Even though the Grados are not the perfect match for the Technics arm, the Silver sounds pretty damn good. There are lots of deals to be had on Grado prestige carts because they are switching them out for the new series of prestige carts. I got my Silver for about 110 USD new. Pretty hard to beat.

I called Grado a few years ago when a local dealer recommended a Gold for my SL-1300. The guy who answered the phone said his name was Joe Grado.
I didn't tell him about my dealer contact and recommendation. I asked him straightout what would be the best cart for the Technics 1300 arm. He said, the Prestige Gold. So that's what I bought. It's been excellent this last few years. Everthing you have heard good about them is true. They track well and have low tip mass. The stylus compliance is an excellent match for the Technics arm's resonant frequency.
The Grado works with the Technics setup!

 

[Mr. Lin]

Have any of you heard one of the wood body cartridges?

I've never heard the Denon cartridges in question, but I love my Silver and Platinum. In fact, although neither can compete with the 10X5 performance-wise, they're pretty close in the musicality department. I particularly enjoy Grado cartridges with any music that has lots of acoustic and/or heavily distorted guitars.

 

[thedelihaus]

the thing that keeps me away from the grado's (except the much higher priced ones) is the hum problem they tend to have with many tables....

would not be an issue with your recent SL-1200 you got.:thmbsp:

...I love my Denon DL-110...you can't beat the sound for the price. it is an excellent cartridge and i don't think i'm missing anything by not having a grado.

I've recently added the Shure MX97, and have a gold from Grado and an AT 440MLa. I'm interested in what the Denon can do. Glad to hear a lot of great feedback about it.

I gave up on Grado years ago. I was tired of returning them because of the hum problem. Sometimes the hum was louder than the music. I think they made Grados to work only with a few turmtable models.

Check the Grado database here. So far, no hum on any of my tables, but indeed others may suffer from it.

I've got no hum on my 1210. Even though the Grados are not the perfect match for the Technics arm, the Silver sounds pretty damn good...

I'd say it's a pretty good match to my ears...:yes:

...Prestige Gold...It's been excellent this last few years. Everthing you have heard good about them is true. They track well and have low tip mass. The stylus compliance is an excellent match for the Technics arm's resonant frequency.
The Grado works with the Technics setup!

:yes:

Though I love the AT440 too.:thmbsp:

 

[wushuliu]

Denon Dissent

I'll throw in a dissenting opinion on the Denon DL-110, which I just got this weekend. Granted, it has not broken in yet - but assuming the general sonic signature remains, I'll probably sell it: The soundstage is big and bold, it makes certain records come alive like my GF's Elvis in Hawaii records and my Keith Jarrett Koln Concert. It's like I'm in the audience watching them perform - but the soundstage also ends up confusing imaging; the location of instruments become harder to place, familiar nuances are now lost or jumbled around. The 'blackness' from which Streisand's voice emerges on her Greatest Hits album is gone, and the intimate sometimes whispery intonation of her voice becomes more Celine Dion live in Vegas.

At first I was like 'wow, this cart came to party!', it makes everything sound like you hit the 'virtual' or 'surround' button on your receiver. But my prog rock titles that have complex passages and shifting soundscapes just sound a mess w/ this cart. Steely Dan lost some of their precise edge (but still sounded great, as always), and the channel separation just doesn't seem as good as my HO Deft 2 and A-T carts (A-T carts excel in this regard, though).

I can only party for so long, and soon I was wanting to listen to swap it out for the HO Deft 2 which has been winning my heart...

I will give it time to break in and see how I feel, but for right now the 110 reminds me of going to a live show or concert. That's how the sound comes to you. You're enveloped and it washes over you, but at the possible expense of imaging and some depth. I think that's why my live performance/vocal albums come off the best w/ this cart.

I can see why it's popular though. It's a headturner in a red dress, no question. It's neutral/bright without being overly analytical, tracks great, good detail.:thmbsp:

I auditioned it on a Philips 212 (low mass arm) and Yamaha YP-801 (medium/high)

albums:

Johnny Cash - Rockabilly Blues. Sounded awesome. Again, the acoustics of this production already has a 'live' sound, and this was amplified w/ the 110
Elvis Live from Hawaii -Party in a Pantsuit!
Steely Dan - Aja - Okay, Nuance sacrificed for forward bold presentation
Yes - Close to the Edge - Kind of a splashy mess, granted this is not the best produced album and is overly bright to begin with.
Keith Jarrett - Koln Concert - Wonderful, immediate presence like he's hitting the keys in front of you.
Barbara Streisand Greatest Hits - the intimate nature of many of the songs and her singing style, like People, is lost in a broad forward presentation.

of course, YMMV...

 

[Cornbread]

I'm surprised you found the imaging of the 110 lacking. It is one of the reasons so many of us love it so much. I have yet to find a cartridge in its price range, along with the DL-160, that performs as well with detail and soundstage.

I think you should give it some time and check its set-up and tracking weight. Some report that it's fussy to set-up and that it likes tracking weight at the higher end of its range.

It's a great cartridge. Soundstage is not something it lacks.

 

[HypnoToad]

wushuliu

Another thing to consider is the overall setup, I found that when using a Cambridge Audio Phono Preamp it did not go over really well with the Denon.

But once I used my Luxman phono stage it was night and day, so maybe the reason you don't like it is somewhere else in your system.

And I agree with Cornbread that the imaging and sound stage is very good.