Did we abandon science/any objective tests??

[mhardy6647]

The big problem with loudspeaker measurements, from my perspective, is the non-ideality of a real-world listening room compared to an anechoic chamber. For example, we have the truism that loudspeakers designed and built to have flat, extended tweeter response will sound "bright" in most real rooms due to the small size & reflectivity of the latter.

Indeed, periodically, a designer (Roy Allison comes to mind, but also Amar Bose and others over the years) will sort of throw conventional wisdom out the window and design loudspeakers to integrate with their anticipated domestic environments. I'd opine that Allison's original line of loudspeakers succeeded at this, in spades... but that's irrelevant to this thread.

 

[MexicoMiike]

The difficulty I have with "hearing" the fact that break-in makes a difference is simply back to that issue of hearing perhaps what you want to/expect to hear. DID anything actually change or not? As I said earlier, it would be easy to measure, even with just a simple dB meter - available as an app for your phone!

Just play a (some) tone(s) with a specific amp output level, check the db reading then do it again at the same amplifier output level after the break in period. Anything that could be heard as deeper/louder/whatever will show up. Obviously you would have to be careful to ensure no changes to the test procedure - placement of the dB meter, position of speakers in the room, etc.

I have to say that I have never heard any difference in a component based on warm-up, whether it was a TT, an amp/preamp or a speaker. Perhaps I have never been sensitive enough to notice it or I didn't pay enough attention. I certainly USED to have the hearing acuity so that wasn't the issue. Then again, I have never heard any difference in speaker wire or interconnects either. So perhaps all the years I have spent being an audiophile have been misdirected due to lack of talent/ability.

 

[Gibsonian]

Every speaker designer I have ever talked to uses pretty well the same approach. The use measurements to get them close and listening to get it right.

Exactly the approach I use at home to finalize speaker/crossover development. In the final adjustments there seems to always be a change or tweak from what looks best with the measurement equipment.

 

[robgmn]

Just for fun, I've been Googling around on the concept of break-in/burn-in/etc.
What's interesting is that all the stuff I've read from people who support the idea reference that other people in the industry "believe it" as their empirical evidence.

Statements such as:

• "Most every manufacturer in the (audiophile) industry believes that the sound of their product changes (improves) after a break-in process",
• "Another prominent cable designer believes that during the break-in process electrons are establishing new micro pathways through the conductor material",
• "The break-in phenomenon has long been a debated concept in the world of high end audio but we have determined it to have unquestionable merit and are proud to provide this service at an affordable rate",
• "Breaking in' a cable has everything to do with the insulation - not the wire itself. The insulation (or dielectric) will absorb energy from the conductor when a current is flowing (i.e. when music is playing). This energy-absorption causes the dielectric's molecules to re-arrange themselves from a random order into a uniform order. When the molecules have been rearranged, the dielectric will absorb less energy & consequently cause less distortion".

'Funny that several mfgrs. discuss in detail a theory that is totally unproven scientifically, yet they KNOW factually exists.

The best quote, however is this: "While there is no hard data (that I am aware of) to prove to the engineers among you that break-in in exists, I'm sure 99.9% of audiophiles have heard the benefits of the process and believe strongly in its importance".

What I also find funny is that this thread (like so many others) wrapped around to "I don't care about measurements. I know what sound I like" which is really NOT the point of the OP.

I know my car runs better and drives smoother after a wash and a wax. Maybe it's the water that's been burned in for a hundred hours by the recycling process?

Spin Doctor.
It's not just a term for an old-school DJ!

 

[mhardy6647]

Mmmm... so, what does "totally unproven scientifically" mean? That's a noticeably odd (ambiguous) turn of phrase.

Failure to prove does not constitute disproof. I am not sure science has tasked itself with investigating break-in of this type... much less proving or disproving that it "exists" or "happens" or what have you.

 

[kb9qkc]

on the whole burn in issure what about not just the mechanical break in's but the electrical break ins. does a crossover network really make the sound much different after hours of use then one that's never been used. in the tube days yes warm up period was needed but do caps really have a break in.

 

[fropiler]

Mmmm... so, what does "totally unproven scientifically" mean? That's a noticeably odd (ambiguous) turn of phrase.

Failure to prove does not constitute disproof. I am not sure science has tasked itself with investigating break-in of this type... much less proving or disproving that it "exists" or "happens" or what have you.

Failure to prove constitutes failure to prove.

What? I said it three times and it's still not true?!

I tend to agree with the op in that if something sounds bad out of the box, it needs to go back. It either sounds good to you or it doesn't.

This is the beauty of AK. You don't have to rely on superfluous marketing claims at all. If it is audio/sound related, it has been discussed here to the point where literally anyone can make an informed decision. Still, in the end, what sounds good to you is up to you to decide.

 

[kb9qkc]

I belive maybe the whole break in period is to get the person custom to the sound of speakers before making their decision on how well they are.

 

[stevantr]

For electronics, how can break-in exist? From a practical point of view, how can a manufacturer test there product after they have built it. I assume they test to see if certain specs are met, be it FR for speakers, distortion for amps, something has to be measured. If the product changes after time (always for the better) do they adjust for this in the End-of-line testing?
It is a scam by primarily cable companies to try to get you to acclimate your ears to the sound in a belief they have changed. As stated earlier, it is easy to test. Is the FR coming out of your speakers different from time 0 to some time in the future?

I doubt it, but if someone wants to lend me a virgin pair of high end cables, I'll test it.

Just for fun, I read through Harmans Speciality group webpages looking for the words "break". Nothing... I read the manual for a Levinson amp and Revel speakers. Nothing refers to break-in. I picked Harman, because I think engineering wise they have their stuff together better than most speciality hi-fi companies.

 

[valvenator]

Generally (with a few exceptions of course) it seems the term 'break-in' is mostly used by reviewers and not the manufacturers.

 

[stevantr]

I'm not surprised Wilson states this. They are the boutique, luxury, speaker manufacturer.
My favorite from Wilson

The key to solving this problem lies in Wilson’s innovative and patented Adjustable Propagation Delay technology, which employs movable modules that allow the individual adjustment of the drivers in the time domain. Using this technology, each driver’s waveform propagation “matches up” with its neighbors’ in such a way to create the sonic equivalent of a single point source. Certain other loudspeaker makers recognize the need to correctly align their drivers, but they do so for only one theoretical listening position.

Maybe I forgot my physics, but I'm pretty sure most audible sounds travel about the same speed through air. Shifting the phase between drivers affects sound? Who would have guessed...

 

[Bigerik]

I'm not surprised Wilson states this. They are the boutique, luxury, speaker manufacturer.
My favorite from Wilson

Maybe I forgot my physics, but I'm pretty sure most audible sounds travel about the same speed through air. Shifting the phase between drivers affects sound? Who would have guessed...

Nothing wrong with their approach at all. It is a totally valid way to address it. I don't think your grasp of physics is the issue, but you might wanna research speaker design a little more. Or is your interest just in mocking them because "They are a boutique, luxury, speaker manufacturer"?

 

[ConradH]

There isn't any real question that at least some loudspeaker drivers break in. Measure the free air resonance of a brand new driver. Run it with some signal for a few hours to days. Measure it again. The resonance will be lower. Nothing subjective about it. Now put the old and new numbers into a box program. Now there's a choice. Design the box for the new driver, so it's correct for an hour, or design the box for the broken in driver, so it's correct for a lot longer.

I don't buy break in for most electronics, though capacitor leakage current will go down for the first hours to days of operation. The individual parts don't show relevant changes over time, so why should the sum of the parts?

 

[stevantr]

Nothing wrong with their approach at all. It is a totally valid way to address it. I don't think your grasp of physics is the issue, but you might wanna research speaker design a little more

There approach and what they claim are opposite. It is important to have drivers in phase if you want truly "accurate" sound reproduction, especially at cross over points. If they are out of phase you will have a null or peak depending on the phase.
Yes it may be beneficial if you want to adjust a tweeter position that is clearly higher than the seating position to make the distance match that of the mid (assuming the cross over has them in phase).

I was in a demo where one was adjusted 1/16th of inch. Everyone in the room was surprised at the improvement after told that things would be clearer and highs more pronounced or some such thing. 1/6th of inch... Please don't rotate your head because you'll mess up the image more. And not everyone was sitting in the same spot.

This adjustability is not a good engineering practice it is simply a marketing gimmick. If you disagree please let me know why.

 

[valvenator]

I'm not surprised Wilson states this. They are the boutique, luxury, speaker manufacturer.
...

...well, I did say with a few exeptions
Honestly, I don't doubt there's a break in period for speakers, but, as was stated before, it's not going to make a so-so speaker sound great. What it will do is bring it to it's full potential, kind of a point where it ain't gettin' better than this. It's the people that exaggerate this claim that are selling snake oil.
One guitar speaker manufacturer I've dealt with does state that their speakers do sound smoother after a short break in period, BUT it sounded fantastic right out of the box, and no, it doesn't take 400 hours :thumbsdn:

Edit: just a thought here but a stiffer surround such as paper vs. cloth vs. rubber vs. foam would probably show a greater change.

 

[stevantr]

There isn't any real question that at least some loudspeaker drivers break in. Measure the free air resonance of a brand new driver. Run it with some signal for a few hours to days. Measure it again. The resonance will be lower. Nothing subjective about it.

I don't disagree. Especially with drivers there will be some change, I'm not sure how much but some.

The drivers I've had spec'd have a FR curve on the drawings, and those parts meet the FR curve parameters tolerance. I don't think they shift out of those tolerances after 5 minutes to 100 hours of use.

 

[mhardy6647]

http://xkcd.com/54/

 

[ConradH]

Hey, that's cosmic, man.

 

[reddog48]

Actually a company called GR Research, that manufactures open-baffle speakers (mostly kits) did some experiments to determine if the drivers (alone) actually changed after break-in. THEY DID. Fs became lower, et cetera.

You can find this company and its measurements on Audio Circle. Look under the "manufacturer's circles" specifically "GR Research" (located in beautiful Iowa Park, Texas.). A feast for the eyes and a delight to the senses.

 

[stevantr]

Reddog,
Thanks for the link.
Yes surrounds break-in. I think we all say mechanically there is going to be a change, and shockingly engineering data has proven this. However, this gem is stated:

This objective data showing changes in the T/S parameters as the suspension loosens up does not prove noted subjective differences in the perceived output, or how a speaker sounds...

It would be interesting to do this using FR data too. Does a few hertz change in FS make a difference in perceptible sound?
I assume break-in will be bigger in larger drivers over smaller too because of the relative size of the surround/spider which is getting worked.