Digital Audio Explained (from an engineer's standpoint)

[JP]

Can you not use your computer and Shure ear buds? If they were good enough for you to hear distortion 32dB down, surely they're good enough for this.

 

[Guest105]

Sorry, I don't find value with instant Cowboy audio comparisons. I find that long term listening is the only way to fully ascertain the capabilities of a component.

So, prior to the test, identify the components which will provide the resolution necessary to observe the difference...surely they must exist, or this entire issue is moot. Use them in your test.

Regarding the issue of "bogus boxes", perhaps you could first determine your ability to identify whether or not an AB/ABX mechanism is in the path? Or is it your implicit contention that there is really no way to objectively test your assertions?

Perhaps you might want to review how I actually use the Touch player instead of using erroneous speculations.

And perhaps rather than providing yet another smarmy response, why not simply provide that information? It seems quite clear that dumptruck was attempting to understand how your system is so much better than the system used in the referenced trial.

You seem to be much more interested in debate than in actually supporting your premise(s).

 

[RobInONT]

So, which recordings were used? Kindly show documentation.

Isn't that a pretty important part of the test?

You do actually read the authors and studies that you bash, right?

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/explanation.htm

 

[Dr Tinear]

This thread is definitely circling the drain. It shouldn't be too much longer before a moderator shows up and locks it.

E-Stat, I'd like to ask a favor of you. If you're tempted to post another thread like this in the future, will you clarify in the title that the "engineer" whose opinions you've decided to share is an audio recordist rather than someone who's knowledgable about information theory or electronic circuit design?

 

[E-Stat]

Can you not use your computer and Shure ear buds? If they were good enough for you to hear distortion 32dB down, surely they're good enough for this.

Aside from the logistical challenge of having to listen on the floor, the real question is: why? To play a game?

It is evident you don't appreciate the difference between the onboard DAC/op amp found on an Intel motherboard with IEMs vs. my main music system if you say such is "good enough".

 

[E-Stat]

Regarding the issue of "bogus boxes", perhaps you could first determine your ability to identify whether or not an AB/ABX mechanism is in the path? Or is it your implicit contention that there is really no way to objectively test your assertions?

A better way which has been done by Frank Van Alstine is simply to measure interactions rather than assuming none exist. On another board, someone brought the following cable test to my attention:

A modest interconnect test

Scroll down a bit to read the methodology for comparison using a Y-adapter. Sounds reasonable, right? The author's conclusion?

"After doing this test, you will discover that all the hype surrounding interconnects is just that. The fact is that all well designed interconnects sound identical."

That smugness actually reflects profound ignorance. I duplicated the test and measured the results along the way. If you'd like to see the results, click here.

Another person suggested a similarly flawed method of comparing speaker cables by switching between "A" and "B" outputs of a receiver. Obviously, that person doesn't understand they share common grounds where the cable metrics are similarly combined. I measured that, too.

It seems quite clear that dumptruck was attempting to understand how your system is so much better than the system used in the referenced trial.

As for me, I find that asking questions is more effective than making unsupported assumptions. Sorry, the "For how long have you been beating your wife?" line of questioning doesn't work with me.

If you find that MP3s or CDs sound the same as high resolution output, then I'm delighted you're happy.

 

[E-Stat]

This thread is definitely circling the drain. It shouldn't be too much longer before a moderator shows up and locks it.

Look in the mirror.

If you're tempted to post another thread like this in the future, will you clarify in the title that the "engineer" whose opinions you've decided to share is an audio recordist rather than someone who's knowledgable about information theory or electronic circuit design?

Simpler solution: choose to not read the thread. Or better still, choose not to respond.

Your call.

 

[Dr Tinear]

... Simpler solution: choose to not read the thread. Or better still, choose not to respond.

Your call.

Or you could use the word "engineer" properly in your thread title rather than floating the implication that the opinion belonged to someone who actually knew something useful about digital audio. What's next, E-Stat -- a pro-subjective opinion from the "sanitation engineer", AKA the janitor, at your work place?

 

[E-Stat]

You do actually read the authors and studies that you bash, right?

Evidently you missed the fact that I linked to that document in post #28.

I suspect you also missed the link I provided where I learned of that *test* in '07.

edit: And I trust you certainly understand that both Meyer and Moran's degrees are in the arts, not science. Moran's background is literature and history. Look again at the credits.

 

[E-Stat]

Or you could use the word "engineer" properly in your thread title rather than floating the implication that the opinion belonged to someone who actually knew something useful about digital audio.

You are free to accept - or reject - the language and a commonly acknowledged profession.

Guys like Bernie Grundman would simply smile at your assertion.

 

[nailer]

You are free to accept - or reject - the language and a commonly acknowledged profession.

Guys like Bernie Grundman would simply smile at your assertion.

Where did Bernie obtain his EE degree?

Just because a group calls themselves engineers doesn't make it so. :scratch2: Sanitation engineers, i.e. janitors.

 

[Dr Tinear]

...I trust you certainly understand that both Meyer and Moran's degrees are in the arts, not science. Moran's background is literature and history. Look again at the credits.

Since their paper was peer-reviewed and published by the Audio Engineering Society, it appears that their test methodology and conclusions passed muster with people who have real engineering degrees.

 

[JP]

Aside from the logistical challenge of having to listen on the floor, the real question is: why? To play a game?

It is evident you don't appreciate the difference between the onboard DAC/op amp found on an Intel motherboard with IEMs vs. my main music system if you say such is "good enough".

Oh, I wouldn't jump quite that far. I'm just trying to find a way that a reasonable ABX can be done within the constraints you're stipulating. This is not evidence that I think your PC/IEM setup is as good as your main system, or that I have any opinion of your systems at all.

Frankly, I'm at a bit of a loss on this one. On one hand you've picked apart just about every listening test presented to you on these forums for various reasons, and on the other you've agreed to a listening test that would appear to be completely uncontrolled and victim to most of the various reasons you've condemned other tests.

I'm happy to make the files anyway so that you have at least one sample where the masters used are controlled and known to be the same, but your findings will still be indicative of nothing more than an opinion based on the flawed perceptions all humans with ears and a brain suffer from.

 

[Dan ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ]

This one is circling the bowl...enough. Closed.