Distortion/sibilance issue with Technics SL-QD33

[ElJeffe]

A digital scale costs around 10-12 dollars. You might want to invest in one. When's the last time that NAD was checked out? From the looks of it, it's a model from the 80s. Is that correct? What is your input chain? Are you using the built-in phono stage or something else?

It is from the '80s. Using the built in phono stage. Again, I have no distortion or sibilance problems with a CD player plugged into the CD/aux input. So could the phono stage need servicing? Perhaps. But it sounds to me more like a tracking/tracing issue, especially given how it mostly fluctuates between records.

I guess you didn't say "audiophile". My bad.

You are probably right that I could be cleaning my records more thoroughly. However, I visited a friend's house who was using a newer AT table with AT cart, and said he didn't know anything about tracking force. He didn't even use more than a dry brush (sometimes). Total novice, yet his system sounded way better than mine. Perfect? No, there was still some distortion/sibilance depending on the record being played. But overall much better. Maybe his '90s (I think?) Onkyo is in better shape than my NAD. His speakers are definitely nicer. Whatever the reason, the overall sound was good enough that I could overlook minor distractions like sibilance. Whereas on my system, it sticks out like a sore thumb. Could my system be slightly more revealing of tracking errors and dirty records? Perhaps. Could it be partly in my own head? Sure.

It sounds like you're basically telling me there are no good options really to improve my system with this TT, though I've read that many have had great success with higher end aftermarket styli and carts. Hoping more people will chime in, so I can get some kind of consensus.

 

[patient_ot]

There is no consensus in this hobby. If you want in person help start a new thread with your approximate location in the title. Maybe someone can troubleshoot with you in person.

 

[patient_ot]

Forgot to mention. On the back of your NAD amp there is a capacitance selector switch for the phono section. Make sure that is set to the lowest value. Make sure also that the MM/MC selector is set to "MM".

 

[ElJeffe]

Forgot to mention. On the back of your NAD amp there is a capacitance selector switch for the phono section. Make sure that is set to the lowest value. Make sure also that the MM/MC selector is set to "MM".

It is already set up this way.

 

[ElJeffe]

There is no consensus in this hobby. If you want in person help start a new thread with your approximate location in the title. Maybe someone can troubleshoot with you in person.

Okay, maybe there's no real "consensus", but some more opinions would sure be helpful.

 

[C Hart]

Welcome to the forum!

OK, I'll bite. I've been into audio for decades and heard tons of systems but I basically feel the same way about costs and value that you do.

My feeling is that it's highly unlikely to be any other part of the system except stylus, cartridge, or record. CD will always beat albums and tape for signal quality even though the analog fans will disagree about warmth, etc.

There is nothing wrong with the P mount system. The sound is indistinguishable from audiophile gear for most people, tracking is light and it's super easy to set up. It's just less configurable than pricier versions. I do agree there are fewer and fewer cartridge choices.

https://www.lpgear.com/category/T4P.html has a pant load of T4P cartridges listed, including LP Gear, AT, Empire, Grado, Pickering, and Ortofon, as well as a bunch of Shures and Ortofons which are discontinued or out of stock and for which, when you click on the bait, they'll happily set you up with the LP equivalent. I don't know anything about the company.

I have a very similar Technics (SL-BD220) and a cheapo AT I got on Amazon. It is decent but also exhibits sibilance on some recordings. If you try a more expensive cartridge and it fixes that I would like to hear about it. Also, try a few high quality albums and see if the sibilance is still there. It's basically distortion in the high frequencies, so it could be just a worn or dirty record.

 

[patient_ot]

https://www.lpgear.com/category/T4P.html has a pant load of T4P cartridges listed, including LP Gear, AT, Empire, Grado, Pickering, and Ortofon, as well as a bunch of Shures and Ortofons which are discontinued or out of stock and for which, when you click on the bait, they'll happily set you up with the LP equivalent. I don't know anything about the company.

Just be careful with that site. They will sometimes list the same cheapo generic under different model numbers and charge more for the same thing under some listings. They will also show a picture of an OEM stylus where the actual thing they send you is aftermarket/generic. Also, if you have any problem with a purchase there, don't be surprised if you have to go through a huge amount of hassle to get it sorted out. Search old threads on the forum.

EDIT, just checked the link. They are selling that terrible red and black Shure p-mount for almost $100, when that was a crappy cartridge to begin with. It originally sold for around $35 and was barely worth that IMHO.

 

[C Hart]

Good advice. That concerned me also so I stepped through ordering with a couple of examples before I posted. They will let you order the Grado Gold and the Pickering - perhaps NOS - but not any Shures nor any Ortofon but one (out of stock or discontinued) - like I said it's got a little clickbait in there. But I read somewhere that they have real cartridges that don't suck.

 

[ElJeffe]

Welcome to the forum!

OK, I'll bite. I've been into audio for decades and heard tons of systems but I basically feel the same way about costs and value that you do.

My feeling is that it's highly unlikely to be any other part of the system except stylus, cartridge, or record. CD will always beat albums and tape for signal quality even though the analog fans will disagree about warmth, etc.

There is nothing wrong with the P mount system. The sound is indistinguishable from audiophile gear for most people, tracking is light and it's super easy to set up. It's just less configurable than pricier versions. I do agree there are fewer and fewer cartridge choices.

https://www.lpgear.com/category/T4P.html has a pant load of T4P cartridges listed, including LP Gear, AT, Empire, Grado, Pickering, and Ortofon, as well as a bunch of Shures and Ortofons which are discontinued or out of stock and for which, when you click on the bait, they'll happily set you up with the LP equivalent. I don't know anything about the company.

I have a very similar Technics (SL-BD220) and a cheapo AT I got on Amazon. It is decent but also exhibits sibilance on some recordings. If you try a more expensive cartridge and it fixes that I would like to hear about it. Also, try a few high quality albums and see if the sibilance is still there. It's basically distortion in the high frequencies, so it could be just a worn or dirty record.

Thank you for the helpful reply! High quality albums do sound better, but there is usually still either sibilance, or general high frequency distortion. It also does generally get worse toward the center of the LP.

 

[patient_ot]

It also does generally get worse toward the center of the LP.

That's garden variety inner groove distortion. Typically the hotter the record is cut the worse it will be. If you are sensitive to it you need a better turntable with more cartridge options. Back to square one.

 

[jrtrent]

Okay, maybe there's no real "consensus", but some more opinions would sure be helpful.

I've never owned a p-mount turntable, but I have had poor experience with both 3rd party and NOS cartridges and styli with respect to tracking issues. At present, Audio Technica shows two current p-mount cartridges, the AT81CP and the AT85EP. If it were me, I'd try one of those, purchasing it directly from AT as I believe that increases my chances of getting the freshest stock. I don't know if any other cartridge maker has a p-mount in their current line-up.

I've long been a fan of cheap cartridges and even conical styli. I'm using an AT3600L at present that's giving me clean sound, handles sibilants well, and is without noticeable inner groove distortion problems. Just an opinion, but if I owned a p-mount turntable I would expect to get clean sound from a brand new AT81CP; if I couldn't, I'd be thinking about getting a turntable that would take standard half-inch mount cartridges to give me more options.

 

[ElJeffe]

That's garden variety inner groove distortion. Typically the hotter the record is cut the worse it will be. If you are sensitive to it you need a better turntable with more cartridge options. Back to square one.

I know that it's IGD. But I thought you said a higher end AT cart, for instance, would track inner grooves better? Why imply, then, that a nicer cart and stylus won't improve the tracking/tracing ability? I have read testimonials from multiple people claiming that a new cart (especially hyper elliptical or Shibata equipped) drastically improved the IGD and sibilance on their p mount TT. I simply don't buy the idea that there are zero cartridge options out there that can perform better than my current one. Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[C Hart]

I have the AT85. It is competent but doesn't let me forget it's there like the old high end Shures used to. At only 35 bucks how bad can it be?

 

[patient_ot]

I know that it's IGD. But I thought you said a higher end AT cart, for instance, would track inner grooves better? Why imply, then, that a nicer cart and stylus won't improve the tracking/tracing ability? I have read testimonials from multiple people claiming that a new cart (especially hyper elliptical or Shibata equipped) drastically improved the IGD and sibilance on their p mount TT. I simply don't buy the idea that there are zero cartridge options out there that can perform better than my current one. Of course, I could be wrong.

CARTRIDGE MANUFACTURERS DO NOT REALLY SUPPORT P-MOUNT ANYMORE.

Read that five times aloud and let it sink into your head.

The two biggest cartridge companies:

Ortofon - ZERO pmount options available.

AT - 2 pmount options available, budget models only. No current OEM styli that fit those budget models that go higher than a bonded elliptical.

No more posts from me here. Some people don't want to be helped or have poor reading comprehension skills. Have fun chasing your tail here.

 

[Hugo65]

I know that it's IGD. But I thought you said a higher end AT cart, for instance, would track inner grooves better? Why imply, then, that a nicer cart and stylus won't improve the tracking/tracing ability? I have read testimonials from multiple people claiming that a new cart (especially hyper elliptical or Shibata equipped) drastically improved the IGD and sibilance on their p mount TT. I simply don't buy the idea that there are zero cartridge options out there that can perform better than my current one. Of course, I could be wrong.

And they are right as far as "hyperelliptical and shibata styli x IGD & sibilance" is concerned.

 

[C Hart]

My take: Get another cartridge and try it out. You can resell it if it doesn't work out. There are plenty of NOS and used carts, plus 6 or 7 new from OEMs.

 

[jrtrent]

I have the AT85. It is competent but doesn't let me forget it's there like the old high end Shures used to. At only 35 bucks how bad can it be?

Thanks for that information. If the AT85EP doesn't quite do it for you, I'd be even more inclined to try the AT81CP. Again, no p-mount experience, but I've been using conical styli exclusively ever since Shure stopped producing replacements for my M97xE.

I like your phrase about a cartridge letting you forget it's there. When a cartridge is working well for me with respect to sibilants or IGD, all I'm aware of is the musical performance, and the end of a side can come as a surprise; when a cartridge is not working well, I'm hoping for the end of the side to come quickly, because what I'm hearing is getting annoying.

 

[jrtrent]

I have read testimonials from multiple people claiming that a new cart (especially hyper elliptical or Shibata equipped) drastically improved the IGD and sibilance on their p mount TT. I simply don't buy the idea that there are zero cartridge options out there that can perform better than my current one. Of course, I could be wrong.

Never hurts to try! One option still available is combining the Ortofon OMP 10 cartridge with a Stylus 30 upgrade. The OMP 10 appears to be discontinued, now listed by Ortofon with their "historical products," but I've seen it available for $130 at LPGear. Ortofon's website indicates the OMP bodies can take any OM replacement stylus (provided the recommended tracking force isn't above your 1.5 gram maximum), and they do offer the Stylus 30 with nude Fine Line tip (a bit pricey, though, at $303). I would check with the dealer, though, to ensure that the OMP 10 body and Stylus 30 are, in fact, compatible.

My inclination, cheapskate that I am, would still be to try a current production, factory fresh, modestly priced p-mount cartridge and see how well it works. I've only had issues with sibilants and IGD when trying 3rd party or old stock cartridges or styli, and Stanton, Shure, and Grado all told me the likely cause with NOS products was that the rubber suspension in a stylus that's been sitting around for who knows how long was likely compromised simply due to age. With the Grado and Stanton, an inexpensive but current production compatible stylus replacement solved the issue (there was no current production stylus available for the Shure). I've been in the hobby long enough to remember when there wasn't anything more advanced than an elliptical, and I did not then nor do I now have any problem getting satisfying playback even from a simple bonded conical stylus.

 

[ElJeffe]

What is not sinking into your head:

CARTRIDGE MANUFACTURERS DO NOT REALLY SUPPORT P-MOUNT ANYMORE.

Read that five times aloud and let it sink into your head.

The two biggest cartridge companies:

Ortofon - ZERO pmount options available.

AT - 2 pmount options available, budget models only. No current OEM styli that fit those budget models that go higher than a bonded elliptical.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

No more posts from me here. Some people don't want to be helped or have poor reading comprehension skills. Have fun chasing your tail here.

That part did sink in. I don't know where the attitude is coming from. I was pointing out that you contradicted yourself. I'm not buying a new TT, so I'll take advice from people who actually want to help. Thanks.

 

[C Hart]

I suggest posting some experience once something has been tried. I am looking at new cartridges vs. old carts/new stylus myself and would be interested in the outcome of any experiments.