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Do all amplifiers sound the same?

Sorry but when its the same post over and over again one tends not to read the op and were not all seasoned and cranky and AK does provide a search button which I use often.
 
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It made no difference..

It made no difference. Whether novice or golden ear, no listener or group of listeners scored any better at identifying which system was which. Supporters of the “no difference in amps’ sound” side were quick to say, “See? Told ya so.” Believers in the “amps’ sound is easily identifiable” camp were just as quick to point out the myriad aspects and conditions of the test that were faulty in their view and thus rendered Nosaine’s conclusions inaccurate. So, in the end, his test settled nothing.

:yes: But of course... you can't "hear" the difference... ?

Needless to say, manufacturers of EVERYTHING do their best to have a purchaser of "the brand".. attribute performance or like-ability to that brand.

They already know.. some things are as the other.. except for a tweak or specialty here and there.

So, I'm not surprised there isn't a notable difference nor distinction involved between these groups.

However.... the "tuned ear" or someone predisposed to a certain listening will definitely discriminate between... even different amplifiers.

Now how they might accomplish this... well :scratch2:.. don't know.
 
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From the article linked by the original poster.

audioholics.com said:
Several years ago, noted reviewer Tom Nosaine conducted a study for Stereo Review magazine in which he attempted to compare the sound of two systems to a listening group through blind A-B testing. One system was made up of the very latest SOTA components and connectors.

The other system was comprised of very “pedestrian” equipment, such as a 1970s-vintage Heathkit power amplifier, a garden-variety CD player, etc.

Both systems were connected via a switcher to the same pair of speakers, so unit-to-unit speaker differences and speaker placement issues didn’t enter the picture at all. An acoustically-transparent but visually-opaque drape was drawn in front of the systems and the room lights were dimmed to assure no visual distraction. Nosaine was well known for his adherence to the scientific process and his rabid attention to detail, so the scenario was well executed.

His results showed that as long as neither system was pushed into distortion there was no statistically-significant preference shown for either system by the group, using a very extensive and varied selection of program material. His listening panel included novice listeners, mild enthusiasts and self-professed “golden eared” audiophiles.

It made no difference. Whether novice or golden ear, no listener or group of listeners scored any better at identifying which system was which. Supporters of the “no difference in amps’ sound” side were quick to say, “See? Told ya so.” Believers in the “amps’ sound is easily identifiable” camp were just as quick to point out the myriad aspects and conditions of the test that were faulty in their view and thus rendered Nosaine’s conclusions inaccurate. So, in the end, his test settled nothing.
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My conclusions. (as a novice, but with electrical engineering background)

a) Get enough amp power to drive the speakers to the level you want to listen at without distortion.

b) If you want to get by with a lower-powered (and priced) amp, get efficient speakers.
 
Smaug said:
From the top of the forum page: "ALL AUDIO, NO ATTITUDE"

...yet I am detecting some attitude. :no:
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So, the conclusion that Soundesign and McIntosh sound the same is inescapable. Yeah right. (Attitude intended in case you missed it.)
 
Smaug said:
From the article linked by the original poster.



My conclusions. (as a novice, but with electrical engineering background)

a) Get enough amp power to drive the speakers to the level you want to listen at without distortion.

b) If you want to get by with a lower-powered (and priced) amp, get efficient speakers.
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Alright, time to waste some keystrokes debunking this. That two setups can sound the same does not imply that all amps sound the same. If all amps sound the same, then we might as well all be North Koreans because personal preference is not possible. This goes against the millions upon millions of consumers that have purchased an audio system based on sound preference.
 
Smaug said:
Did any of you cranky seasoned veterans actually bother to read the original post? It seems not. The OP was presenting articles on the subject, not really asking for your opinions.
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I did and the original OP has a title to it, Do all amplifiers sound the same? See the question mark?:thmbsp:

A thread on a discussion forum is for input of the members of the site as well.:thmbsp:
 
If ya really want to bring out the best of any amp you just add a super thick speaker cable like a MIT, or a AudioQuest with DBS or a super premium cable from Transparent. Cables make the amp, instead of buying a $10k amp buy a $500 one, add a $2000 speaker cable and it'll sound better than a $20k amp.....that's just science, and good math!
 
SoCal Sam said:
Alright, time to waste some keystrokes debunking this. That two setups can sound the same does not imply that all amps sound the same. If all amps sound the same, then we might as well all be North Koreans because personal preference is not possible. This goes against the millions upon millions of consumers that have purchased an audio system based on sound preference.
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That may not be exactly what Smaug was saying in his reply. His take away was that having sufficient power and efficiency prevents clipping distortion. That much is certainly valid.

We're creatures of bias, and influences other than sound qualities can have large effects on decision making and perception: ie, what we think we hear. According to papers and proponents of controlled listening tests, all electronics with a flat response from 20-20kHz within 1dB and less than 1% THD (modern amps, preamps, dacs fit this criteria) that are level matched to within .1dB of each other are indistinguishable in ABX tests. The test results supported that hypothesis, but there's a catch.
 
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There was evidence that ABX results were unreliable/biased toward a 50% result (equal to no better than chance). By the time the X comes, any difference between B and A may be removed from acoustic memory. Double blind tests, the academic standard testing method used by Tool, Geddes and others, gave different results than ABX. They suggested the differences could be more easily identified, but not "night and day" kind of differences that people ascribe to their components.

The things I always question are: what speakers and room treatment where they using, and what were the age/occupation demographics of the subjects?

Anyway, I don't place any blind faith in Audioholics nor Tom's inflamatory defunct publication. What I disliked was his tone and how people of his ilk misused data to justify building marginal gear because "we can't hear any difference".
 
When we listen to amplifiers, we do it generally with speakers. Various amplifiers interact differently with different speakers.

It is quite possible and probable that two similarly rated amplifiers will sound identical to one another on one pair of speakers and quite different and easily distinguishable to one another on another pair of speakers.

It is this character changing/synergy that amplifiers exhibit when driving various speakers that makes the entire debate/argument moot. There is no one simple yes or no to the question.

Some speakers highlight amplifier differences, others don't. It's easy to demonstrate and measure. I have done it before with real music sources, not test tones and the results were interesting.

The methodology is simple enough, level match at 1KHz to within a few mV the two amplifiers, feed the source music to amplifier 1 which is connected to the speakers. Take a padded down output (fixed voltage divider), from the speaker terminals into the front end A/D of a DAT or suitable A/D front end. (I used my DTC-55es DAT). Record the track.

Do the same with amplifier 2, same speakers, cable, resistor pad and A/D. Record the track.

Those two recordings now contain the different interactions of the same pair of speakers with two different amplifiers. Depending on how well you level matched them, you can play with the files add/inv etc to see differences or just listen to them on ANY system (use your best system) and hear the difference between the two amplifiers.

I satisfied myself years ago that some amplifiers sound the same, most sound different. It's not voodoo. It's the pairing of to obtain that perfect synergy that is voodoo.
 
Nikko75 said:
That may not be exactly what Smaug was saying in his reply. His take away was that having sufficient power and efficiency prevents clipping distortion. That much is certainly valid.

We're creatures of bias, and influences other than sound qualities can have large effects on decision making and perception: ie, what we think we hear. According to papers and proponents of controlled listening tests, all electronics with a flat response from 20-20kHz within 1dB and less than 1% THD (modern amps, preamps, dacs fit this criteria) that are level matched to within .1dB of each other are indistinguishable in ABX tests. The test results supported that hypothesis, but there's a catch.
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Had Smaug stated that he has heard the two systems in his post and to his ears, they sound indistinguishable, I would have accepted his opinion as valid. He did not so his is an error of inference.

The second half of your post is true. Amps that reproduce the same traces will sound the same within the constraints of their respective power outputs. For example, I have seen on the 'scope and then heard lowly HK receivers perform just as well as 300 wpc big iron amps. Within the first 10 watts or so, both sounded similar. I am sure above the HK's rated power, the similarity breaks down. This shows that two systems can sound similar but to generalize from this result to all amps sound the same is again an error of inference.
 
SoCal Sam said:
The second half of your post is true. Amps that reproduce the same traces will sound the same within the constraints of their respective power outputs.
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That's pretty much what I quoted here:

His results showed that as long as neither system was pushed into distortion there was no statistically-significant preference shown for either system by the group,
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Sadly, I don't have the means to conduct an experiment myself. But if I did, I probably couldn't do it better than has already been done. Also, if I did, you would surely question my own experiment, so there's no way to make a believer of someone whose mind is already closed.


Maybe subconsciously, I'm happy to read that news, because it makes me feel more comfortable with my humble system.

...and maybe for the opposite reason, subconsciously, you're a lot more skeptical or unhappy to read it.

I can tell you this from my own observations though: The difference in the final sound from speakers is FAR more noticeable than from changing an amp. [if there IS a difference ;) ] (again assuming the music is not played loudly enough to cause distortion)
 
Smaug said:
That's pretty much what I quoted here:



Sadly, I don't have the means to conduct an experiment myself. But if I did, I probably couldn't do it better than has already been done. Also, if I did, you would surely question my own experiment, so there's no way to make a believer of someone whose mind is already closed.


Maybe subconsciously, I'm happy to read that news, because it makes me feel more comfortable with my humble system.

...and maybe for the opposite reason, subconsciously, you're a lot more skeptical or unhappy to read it.

I can tell you this from my own observations though: The difference in the final sound from speakers is FAR more noticeable than from changing an amp. [if there IS a difference ;) ] (again assuming the music is not played loudly enough to cause distortion)
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On a quick switch of amps I went from a McIntosh MC402 to a McIntosh MC501 pair. They are very close in price, output, factory design and age, nothing else changed in the system. There was no need for subconscious opinion as to pre judge do to looks price or design. The MC501s are a clear winner in SQ no matter if gain is low or high.

BTW you should go back and listen to that vid for the first 30 seconds. Maybe pop into a duplicat thread started two weeks ago, I posted a link earlyer and you might understand all the prior comments of this thread.

Oh and welcome to AK
 
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Smaug said:
I can tell you this from my own observations though: The difference in the final sound from speakers is FAR more noticeable than from changing an amp. [if there IS a difference ;) ] (again assuming the music is not played loudly enough to cause distortion)
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I'm with ya man.
 
SoCal Sam said:
The second half of your post is true. Amps that reproduce the same traces will sound the same within the constraints of their respective power outputs. For example, I have seen on the 'scope and then heard lowly HK receivers perform just as well as 300 wpc big iron amps. Within the first 10 watts or so, both sounded similar. I am sure above the HK's rated power, the similarity breaks down. This shows that two systems can sound similar but to generalize from this result to all amps sound the same is again an error of inference.
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I agree completely with this. I just posted this as I found the read interesting and wanted to share.

Sorry if I stirred up a bees nest.
 
Even if amplifiers did not sound the same, and I presume that it's more than likely they don't, I'm sure I'd enjoy any of them on my favorite pairs of speakers as long as they were well functioning and matched power requirements.
Even Krell and Bryston:)
 
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