Will S.
Super Member
Sure. Build quality, protective circuitry, ability to handle difficult loads (if you need it), aesthetics, prestige...
Do all solid state amps sound the same?
- Thread starter Gudstufshevy
- Start date
Sure. Build quality, protective circuitry, ability to handle difficult loads (if you need it), aesthetics, prestige...
dusty42701
Super Member
Amp: Random junk supermarket all-in-one unit.
Speakers: 80's SHARP floorstanding. Model unknown, but its a 3 way with an 8" woofer, about 3 feet tall.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
That may be, but an amplifier is first and foremost a voltage amplifier. All the current in the world does you no good without voltage (unless, maybe, you have 0.1 ohm speakers). It's power that does the work.
One could say the same about voltage.
All the voltage in the world does you no good without current. Agreed, it's power that does the work. But with no current flow all you have is an expensive static electricity generator.
Any voltage with no current (flow) is static electricity. Disconnect the capacitors in a power supply and listen to how well your speakers don't work.
whoaru99
Epic Member
Sure, but again, an audio amplifier is primarily a voltage amplifer. You dial up the voltage with the volume control and the current "flows" at the level commensurate to the voltage drop across the speaker.
I mentioned power, that's ultimately where it's at. Neither current nor voltage alone make it work, neither is more important because the system cannot work without the appropriate level of either. 1V and 10A and 10V and 1A both equal 10W abstractly, but it just doesn't work that way when it comes to audio/speakers; there is no mixing and matching voltage and current in this regard.
100W to an 8 ohm speaker is roughly 28 volts and 3.5A. 3.5V and 28A doesn't give you 100W to an 8 ohm speaker. Doesn't work, won't happen.
I mentioned power, that's ultimately where it's at. Neither current nor voltage alone make it work, neither is more important because the system cannot work without the appropriate level of either. 1V and 10A and 10V and 1A both equal 10W abstractly, but it just doesn't work that way when it comes to audio/speakers; there is no mixing and matching voltage and current in this regard.
100W to an 8 ohm speaker is roughly 28 volts and 3.5A. 3.5V and 28A doesn't give you 100W to an 8 ohm speaker. Doesn't work, won't happen.
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That's completely incorrect. A standard AA battery with nothing connected to it does not contain "static" electricity. It has a potential difference, or voltage, of 1.5 volts DC between its terminals.
If you want to get technical, there's absolutely no such thing as "static" electricity, except in the vernacular.
There is only one kind of "electricity". There is only one kind of voltage, and that's a difference in charge, or potential, between two points. Once the circuit is closed, then current will flow. There is no difference in the "electricity" coming out of a battery vs the spark when you shuffle across the floor and touch a doorknob, other than the magnitudes of the voltages and currents. They're both simply DC voltages and currents.
That 1/4" spark jumping between your fingertip and the doorknob is, give or take, around 12,000-15,000 volts DC, and a few microamps of DC current.
Gudstufshevy
Art
Reading through this thread has been interesting. Thanks again to all who have taken the time to post. I'm really curious about several schools of thought.
The original intent of this thread was to focus on the sound of just the amp. The assertion that the perceived difference may be more related ( or at least strongly influenced by) passive crossovers is quite interesting and seems to hold some water.
My own experience with active crossovers started with car audio. In the early days most car subs used passive crossovers, in these systems you needed a top shelf amp to get some power. Some amps sounded much better than others. With the coming or popularization of active systems the individual amps seem to be less critical.
I haven't "gone active" at home yet. But I've had the oppurtunity to hear one. It was predictably impressive. Who among us isn't impressed by racks of amps etc?
To get back on track though, there are several groups that seem to be "onto something" with the concept that passive crossovers "get in the way" of the music robbing you of the details. Im starting to wonder if there is a "magical" combination or symetry between certain crossover topology and specific amp designs that could come down to numbers vs mystery. Obviously I'm speculating about matters way over my head here, but do you see where I'm coming from?
The original intent of this thread was to focus on the sound of just the amp. The assertion that the perceived difference may be more related ( or at least strongly influenced by) passive crossovers is quite interesting and seems to hold some water.
My own experience with active crossovers started with car audio. In the early days most car subs used passive crossovers, in these systems you needed a top shelf amp to get some power. Some amps sounded much better than others. With the coming or popularization of active systems the individual amps seem to be less critical.
I haven't "gone active" at home yet. But I've had the oppurtunity to hear one. It was predictably impressive. Who among us isn't impressed by racks of amps etc?
To get back on track though, there are several groups that seem to be "onto something" with the concept that passive crossovers "get in the way" of the music robbing you of the details. Im starting to wonder if there is a "magical" combination or symetry between certain crossover topology and specific amp designs that could come down to numbers vs mystery. Obviously I'm speculating about matters way over my head here, but do you see where I'm coming from?
Gudstufshevy
Art
The evolving theory goes something like this. Relatively simple two way minimal component crossovers are less "variable" or perhaps more predictable as a load across a wide range of amp designs. Vs. More complex three way (or greater) crossovers with more complex zobel or limiting networks having more complex load interactions with the amp? (not sure I'm sober enough to communicate my thoughts here. lol) perhaps more to follow tomorrow.
Any thoughts? Half drunken ramblings?
Thanks again, this is truly a great forum.
Any thoughts? Half drunken ramblings?
Thanks again, this is truly a great forum.
marc mc
Super Member
Gudstufshevy
These types of threads often appear and are well debated. The "Do amps sound the same" goes back to day one in audio. Like the SS vs Tubes and vinyl vs Digital they get a fair share of attention. I'm glad they get a balance of ideas now. When I first started at AK is was all objective and far too one sided. It reminded me of the Stereo Review magazine from the 80's.
Theses threads fall in line with the objective and subjective personality types. They rarely if ever change anyones mind and usually spiral downward. The reasons are simple and the reasons are complex. I personally only post for the guys that are starting out or want something more. I use the debates to share ideas and enthusiasm for something I have discovered, and to break up a bit of the gridlocked ideas.
As for your question about certain combinations that seem to become more than the sum of thier parts when combined. Yes, I have a few. And I use crossovers a fair bit. I have often been labeled a crossover hater when that is not true. I have some very nice passives on shelves that I use for the top section of a couple of my big actives. In fact I paid some serious coin for a pair of ADS L910 crossovers last weekend.
marc mc
These types of threads often appear and are well debated. The "Do amps sound the same" goes back to day one in audio. Like the SS vs Tubes and vinyl vs Digital they get a fair share of attention. I'm glad they get a balance of ideas now. When I first started at AK is was all objective and far too one sided. It reminded me of the Stereo Review magazine from the 80's.
Theses threads fall in line with the objective and subjective personality types. They rarely if ever change anyones mind and usually spiral downward. The reasons are simple and the reasons are complex. I personally only post for the guys that are starting out or want something more. I use the debates to share ideas and enthusiasm for something I have discovered, and to break up a bit of the gridlocked ideas.
As for your question about certain combinations that seem to become more than the sum of thier parts when combined. Yes, I have a few. And I use crossovers a fair bit. I have often been labeled a crossover hater when that is not true. I have some very nice passives on shelves that I use for the top section of a couple of my big actives. In fact I paid some serious coin for a pair of ADS L910 crossovers last weekend.
marc mc
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Many speakers can give more scale than what I have. But 3-drivers having their coherency, appearing almost as a point source, with time and phase alignment...that's more what I'm after. Clarity at volume that would drive me out of the room, not so much. The scale they have is the scale I listen at, anything more would be wasted on me (and my neighbors). We all listen for different things.
marc mc
Super Member
The bolded section is the key John. Thats the thing that I found. Try to imagine for a second that what I mean by scale, is not loudness. Picture things just getting bigger and bigger as the volume goes up, not louder. Its like the area the music was recorded takes shape around the speakers but things are as relaxed as they are a lower volumes were your sitting. It never drives you from the room because it never comes at you, it just keeps filling in more at the speakers. And what I use to consider insane sound levels it doesn't "seem" loud because it stays relaxed and things don't harden and beam (which is what drives you out of the room). What I'm talking about has nothing in common with the volume thing that JBL and CV are about at all.
marc mc
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austi15
Super Member
+1 :yes:
Marc, I know exactly what you're talking about. I've heard many systems that do exactly that, and yes, up to the level that I want to listen to, my system does that. It doesn't distort. The sound doesn't compress. The sound is never connected to the speakers anyway, and that just gets better as the sound gets louder. I'm certain it sounds different than what you have, but in a room the size of my living room the problem is not the amp, crossover or speakers...it's neighbors and room interaction. Trust me, the sound is open and crystal clear up until I really don't feel the need to listen any louder. I can turn it up and it still sounds good, and the soundstage expands, but it's not practical nor do I feel the need to listen to things beyond what I hear them at in a live situation.
Will S.
Super Member
Perhaps, but I think they have been accelerating since the advent of affordable high-quality solid state amplification in the 70s and CD audio in the 80s.
With tubes and vinyl everything is tweakable and small tweaks can make a big difference. With SS and CD, this is much less true and that removes some of the participatory nature of the hobby. So if it takes magical thinking or clinging to the old ways to bring that back, so be it.
marc mc
Super Member
Fair enough John, we are clearly talking about 2 very different things. I know that because I believed and could have written myself everything you wrote a couple years ago. In fact if I dug around I could probably find an almost word for word post written by me (minus the neighbor thing of course). And in the past month I sold 2 of the pairs of speakers that I used to think that about. Active really is a different thing and yet to describe it here is like trying to explain the taste of chocolate. YMMV
marc mc
marc mc
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We're all just playing in a big sandbox doing whatever we want to do...no harm in that. For the past two days I've been playing with a giant Class-D A/V amplifier and having a blast..who'd have thunk it? To each their own as long as we're having a good time and happy about it.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Fisherdude, whoaru99: I was only trying to make a point that without current all the voltage amplification in the world won't drive anything.
I'm aware that a battery is a container of electrical potential. An amplifier that has no current produces no output no matter what the voltage level is. If you connect a load to the output and there is no or minimal current flow even the most efficient transducer will not work well if at all. That's why it's "current flow".
Any speaker that uses a magnet(s) and a coil is basically a DC motor. DC motors are current driven devices.
I'm aware that a battery is a container of electrical potential. An amplifier that has no current produces no output no matter what the voltage level is. If you connect a load to the output and there is no or minimal current flow even the most efficient transducer will not work well if at all. That's why it's "current flow".
Any speaker that uses a magnet(s) and a coil is basically a DC motor. DC motors are current driven devices.
Zarathustra
Active Member
The 25 Watts monaural Class A ML2 Amp had a fully regulated powersupply not the ML3. I had both at the same time and found the ML3 not much inferior to the ML2's on my Acoustat 2 + 2's.
The biggest difference is in the preamp or preamp section , However the build quality of the amp , ppower supply and other factors play a big part ! My Mac 1900 more laid back euphoric sound less detailed but very mellow and enjoyable ! Sta2080 brings more bass punch and more detail the bass and mid range really shine ! Sta2090 very powerful clean more modern not as bass heavy mid not as warm ! Carver hr772 power house at 140 wpc fun but even with 5 tone controls can not get the precise tone control that the sta2080 has ! To me the sta2080 is the Goldie lochs receiver not to big , not to warm , plenty of inputs , classic silver face looks , cool meters and decent phono sections , plenty of power ! Of course I’m biased I’ve owned my sta2080 for 43 yrs and have a second one as a standby ! 3 different sound signitures ! The carver and the sta2090 are similar in sound .
I sold Jolida and Black Ice Audio tube gear for 13 years- During that time I sold a lot of vintage gear, and bought and sold a number of SS amps. People listen for differences, but can rarely hear the similarities. Mosfet output amps will sound similar. There is a similar sound qualtiy, or characteristic. There must be. Bipolar amps will sound a bit brighter than mosfet amps. Companies do manipulate the sound to create a signatirue sound. Not a big difference. A company might hype up the upper frequencies so one might here that amp ans think it sounds very clear. One company might hype the bass so one who love bass will think that amp sounds the best. One company might filter both the highs and bass to create a smooth, relaxed sound. Visuals influece the sound and buying decision greatly. Name. Size. But An amp may be made to sound a bit more forward. This amp will seem more dynamic and lively. I now have a Yamaha A-S300, a Denon PMA-525R, and a Rotel A10. The Yamaha is very relaxed. The Denon is rather neutral, and the Rotel is forward and lively sounding. But really, these sound very similar. My wife cannot tell a difference at all. That is a good yardstick because she is not biased or fanatical about gear. There is nothing to influence her hearing. No differencde to her. I did some blind tests in my store sometimes. People could not tell the difference. If you do a blind test using two EL84 tube amps most people would never hear a difference. This is an old thread, but if anyone comes along these are my thoughts. If you are on a budget then Denon, Yamaha, or Rotel are good choices. If you have a lot to spend Accuphase is very nice. Or an expensive Denon or Yamaha might do well. Those are very clear with a nice lower midrange for a full sound- lush sound.