I'm not surprised by that at all. As much as I love my Levinson, I think my Sony Ta-n86b Class A amp is a better sounding amp within the level that it can handle. The problem is, it's only 18wpc and on my main speakers, it just gets lost during transients or any sort of dynamic demand. So I go with the Levinson, which loses just a hint of sweetness that the little Class-A amp has, but makes up for it in a solid, unflappable sound that really lends a drive to the sound (as well as many more things I like). Those two amps do not sound the same, but the differences are really apparent when they are tested. One falls apart, one trudges right on through. And I'll lose a hint of sound quality for that, because when the lower power amp loses out, it really sounds bad. It makes me want to get a larger Class-A amp, actually, but I'm very happy with the Levinson, its only a very tiny crack in its veneer that it loses by a hair to an excellent vintage Class-A amp.
Do all solid state amps sound the same?
- Thread starter Gudstufshevy
- Start date
I'm not surprised by that at all. As much as I love my Levinson, I think my Sony Ta-n86b Class A amp is a better sounding amp within the level that it can handle. The problem is, it's only 18wpc and on my main speakers, it just gets lost during transients or any sort of dynamic demand. So I go with the Levinson, which loses just a hint of sweetness that the little Class-A amp has, but makes up for it in a solid, unflappable sound that really lends a drive to the sound (as well as many more things I like). Those two amps do not sound the same, but the differences are really apparent when they are tested. One falls apart, one trudges right on through. And I'll lose a hint of sound quality for that, because when the lower power amp loses out, it really sounds bad. It makes me want to get a larger Class-A amp, actually, but I'm very happy with the Levinson, its only a very tiny crack in its veneer that it loses by a hair to an excellent vintage Class-A amp.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Get a Krell. Not a Krell AV amp just a straight Krell. Krell amps are stable into a 1 Ohm load. That's after doubling down.
A regulated power supply on a power amp prevents voltage sag on the main power supply rails and provides current. The maximum output voltage is fixed and set by the secondaries of the power transformer. When an amp is connected to a lower impedance load the voltage stays the same only the current increases.
A regulated power supply will hold the main rail voltage steady while producing whatever current is needed. The lack of current limiting is what makes regulated power supplies expensive. It's basically a fixed voltage, output amplifier with enormous current reserves.
I'm in the same park with marc mc. The best crossover is no crossover. The second best crossover is an active one. Although there may be a sonic signature imparted by an active crossover. I can almost guarantee it's less than any passive.
In this area IMO I've got the best of both. From 80Hz up my ESL's have no crossover. From 80Hz down it's all on my subs. I use an active crossover to accomplish this.
A regulated power supply on a power amp prevents voltage sag on the main power supply rails and provides current. The maximum output voltage is fixed and set by the secondaries of the power transformer. When an amp is connected to a lower impedance load the voltage stays the same only the current increases.
A regulated power supply will hold the main rail voltage steady while producing whatever current is needed. The lack of current limiting is what makes regulated power supplies expensive. It's basically a fixed voltage, output amplifier with enormous current reserves.
I'm in the same park with marc mc. The best crossover is no crossover. The second best crossover is an active one. Although there may be a sonic signature imparted by an active crossover. I can almost guarantee it's less than any passive.
In this area IMO I've got the best of both. From 80Hz up my ESL's have no crossover. From 80Hz down it's all on my subs. I use an active crossover to accomplish this.
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bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
Just rolled the FPB 300 back into the "comfort" system, there is no substitute.
I will mention this one little FWIW, the Krell is the ONLY amplifier i've ever owned or used that simply doesn't know or care what's connected to it for a load right down to a dead short. They tell me it's capable of burning up shorted speaker wire without damage to the amplifier. However, i'm still a bit apprehensive to try that test.
whoaru99
Epic Member
But, fwiw, at the same time the regulated PS provides for real doubling down it also provides for zero dynamic headroom.
...They tell me it's capable of burning up shorted speaker wire without damage to the amplifier. However, i'm still a bit apprehensive to try that test.
Yeah, but can you weld with it?
Pfft. Not impressed.
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
I'm gonna have this one fully serviced at Krell in the spring, maybe they'll give me a loaner to experiment with?:scratch2:Yeah, but can you weld with it?
Pfft. Not impressed.
Isn't that the built in sales gimmick to sell you the next consecutively larger model ASAP?
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Stereo Review did with a Mark Levinson ML3. It also has a fully regulated power supply.
Specifications
200 W/ch @ 8 ohms, 400 W/ch @ 4 ohms, 800 W/ch @ 2 ohms
Maximum output: 45 volts 30 amperes
Two 1.2 kVa Avel Lindbergh torodial transformers, 4 Sprague 36,000 µF, 100 V capacitors and 40 output devices (20 per channel)
Range: 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than 0.2% total harmonic distortion
Gold-plated Camac input connectors
Adjustable AC voltage: No, factory set
Adjustable output damping toggle switches (one per channel) (in later models only)
Weight: 116 lb (56 kg)
Specifications
200 W/ch @ 8 ohms, 400 W/ch @ 4 ohms, 800 W/ch @ 2 ohms
Maximum output: 45 volts 30 amperes
Two 1.2 kVa Avel Lindbergh torodial transformers, 4 Sprague 36,000 µF, 100 V capacitors and 40 output devices (20 per channel)
Range: 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than 0.2% total harmonic distortion
Gold-plated Camac input connectors
Adjustable AC voltage: No, factory set
Adjustable output damping toggle switches (one per channel) (in later models only)
Weight: 116 lb (56 kg)
whoaru99
Epic Member
My Levinson No. 23 also claims to double down and does not, afaik, have a regulated PS. The components called out for the ML3 sound very familiar with regard to xformer size, capacitance, etc. with the No. 23, although the No. 23 claims either 52 or 62 volts max output, don't recall exactly, but something like that. Either way, it's a lot more than the rated power suggests regardless of load impedance.
chicks
Lunatic Member
Here's a good article on amplifier design showing why power supply regulation simply isn't necessary, since properly designed amps have very high PSRR:
http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio...-design---Part-3--Power-supply-rail-rejection
http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio...-design---Part-3--Power-supply-rail-rejection
marc mc
Super Member
dlaloum, great post its to bad its will be passed on.
I probably should have mentioned volume and scale earlier in this thread but as usual forgot. Scale of sound is were its at what for me. I have personally never heard a passive speaker that can stay calm at the scale I routinely play my systems at, I'm not saying there isn't one, I'm saying I have never heard one. I don't live in an apartment and don't listen to background music. Active lets me do things at scale while staying smooth and effortless. Its rediculous and it really is a different thing altogether.
Turn the knob on your system up between 11 and 1 O'clock and see what it sounds like and what happens. Thats were mine usually is, and it wasn't always that way. Just a few years ago my system of choice was fullrangers and all tubes. I liked the low level detail and ease on the brain. I was learning about actives on my other systems and liked both. But as my designs increased in size it became apparent that I could have all the detail and ease I wanted and the scale of live sound at the same time.
marc mc
I probably should have mentioned volume and scale earlier in this thread but as usual forgot. Scale of sound is were its at what for me. I have personally never heard a passive speaker that can stay calm at the scale I routinely play my systems at, I'm not saying there isn't one, I'm saying I have never heard one. I don't live in an apartment and don't listen to background music. Active lets me do things at scale while staying smooth and effortless. Its rediculous and it really is a different thing altogether.
Turn the knob on your system up between 11 and 1 O'clock and see what it sounds like and what happens. Thats were mine usually is, and it wasn't always that way. Just a few years ago my system of choice was fullrangers and all tubes. I liked the low level detail and ease on the brain. I was learning about actives on my other systems and liked both. But as my designs increased in size it became apparent that I could have all the detail and ease I wanted and the scale of live sound at the same time.
marc mc
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whoaru99
Epic Member
Mine, at least those with dial controls, sound fine in that range. I suppose it might be otherwise if there is poor gain structure of the system causing the system to be maxed out at a relatively low volume control setting.
Me, too.
My speakers maintain clarity and my amp doesn't show any signs of clipping right up to what I can stand to listen to from a loudness standpoint.
gkimeng
Forum Mod, ClassicSpeakerPages.net
I really wish someone would figure out a way to add a "detail" adjustment to amplifiers. Even the least "detailed" systems I hear often seem to deliver more than most live performances I've experienced.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
PSRR is not the sole reason for a regulated power supply. However, if you want to cure or get rid of power supply rail voltage sag or ripple caused by fluctuations in the AC from the wall, a regulated supply does it better. It's just ungodly expensive. So my response to that "White Paper" is so what! The other reason for a regulated supply is large current reserves. Any magnet and voice coil driven speaker is essentially a DC motor. DC electric motors are current driven devices.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Sorry I was misinformed by a buddie who has one. I shall take him to task for misinforming me.
whoaru99
Epic Member
That may be, but an amplifier is first and foremost a voltage amplifier. All the current in the world does you no good without voltage (unless, maybe, you have 0.1 ohm speakers). It's power that does the work.
Jon_Logan
Addicted Member
@JoeESP9
Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as 'snippy' about the ML-3. I just remember that thing as having 20~22 output transitors per side. Helluva an impressive beast. The two Avel Lindbergs inside were beautius, along with the big caps and the B+ and B- feeds.
To me the whole doubling down thing is kind of a red herring. If the amp works as a voltage source with the connected load, it delivers the required current for the load. Adding more current capability, IMO, adds nothing.
marc mc
Super Member
Me, too.
Sorry John I should have been clearer with my example. I hesitated with my example.
Said a different way. I know the speakers you have and at max they would not even be close to the scale I was meaning.
marc mc