Do all solid state amps sound the same?

[JohnVF]

It is possible and has been done. When the results come back from this type of test, it shows that the differences are much smaller than people expect, so some immediately fault the test rather than accept what the data is reporting.

I'm one of those people and its not because I don't expect the results of the test. I fully expect that given unfamiliar music, a different listening environment, unfamiliar speakers, the routing of the signal through some switching apparatus, the change in listening mentality because you're now in a 'test', the short time of listening instead of the hours or days often needed to tell if something is really more enjoyable to listen to, the mental bias that happens when you're removed from your own comfortable environment, the onset of group think, the fact that even MP3s passed a number of blind tests, that there was one test where people said a clock radio sounded like a real instrument (wish I could find the link to that one) and of course not to mention that often some extreme percentage of choices must often be right in these tests for there to be an admitted difference..say, if 75% of somebody's answers indicate a difference and a better than 90% correct score is needed, then the 75% is not payed any attention to and written off as chance because somebody else who may not have as trained of an ear or who's mentality was more affected by the foreign aspect of the test environment got 25%...and...and...that all amps will sound the same to a group of random people. Add to that the fact that I don't believe there are huge glaring differences to begin with that stand out in short listening sessions...at least not ones that are important to most people..then yeah, it doesn't surprise me one bit.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. I really don't care about science applied to my leisure activities. Cheers!

 

[Doug G.]

The point of double blind testing is NOT to find whether one test unit is more enjoyable than another.

It is to find whether there is a DIFFERENCE between test units.

This does not take hours or days.

As Jon said above, when results appear that don't comport with preconceived ideas, the test is faulted rather than the results accepted.

Doug

 

[ev13wt]

I agree with the OP.

I "hear" that all amps that are in spec and properly designed will sound "the same" on normal "revealing" speakers.

 

[marc mc]

I notice what keeps getting missed is what was said earlier in the thread. By switching back and forth with a blind test or any kind of amp test. What your going to be hearing is the amps interaction with a certain speaker. Not amp differences. Meaning an amp that handles the speaker load better will sound better.

You would have to use fullrange drivers and no crossovers on your test. Which is what I said earlier, when you use an active crossover before amplification and conect the amps directly to the speakers, differences I have noticed with those amps on passive set ups are undetectable. IMO it does not help the better made amps but it turns the midfi amps into super amps.

Guys running around looking for the perfect amp which for the most part sound similar anyway! Are really just trying to find an amp that can handle the interaction with thier speakers the best. When I moved to active I waved bye bye to that stuff. Amps are amps to me now. I sold 10 of mine, put thousands in my pocket and every system is miles better than my passive days.

I will also say that the only blind test that I have confidence in a 100% agreement would be an active vs passive at any volume. It's not even close.
You can bring in people off the street to join as well, it wouldn't matter.



marc mc

 

[bowtie427ss]

JohnVF's post above reminded me of how important the intimacy of our own listening environments as well as source libraries can be for the kind of critical listening required to appreciate the extent of the differences in many components in the chain, not just amplifiers.

When the results come back from this type of test, it shows that the differences are much smaller than people expect, so some immediately fault the test rather than accept what the data is reporting.

I'd like to start a "camp" that subscribes to that abstract thing we all call "music" being at fault for many of smaller than expected differences, as the music used in any blind test cannot possibly be interpreted the same, or involving to the same degree for every listener.

Both you fellas made me ask myself "could i hear the same nuances and subtleties differentiated between two amplifiers as i have at home in a completely unfamiliar setting, system, source(program), or situation?" After some thought, my answer is "probably to a much lesser degree than expected, if at all in some situations".

Just my .02.............................

Some great posts here BTW!

 

[marc mc]

I want to say that my posts in this thread are not just to proclain the superiority of active set ups. But to bring the question to the front from my own expereince.

What is causing differences in amps to be heard? Is it the amps? or amp and crossover/speaker interaction?

For me it became obvious without me paying any attention that when I ran more and more things active, the amps made no difference.

marc mc

 

[chicks]

I really don't care about science applied to my leisure activities.

I'm sure your realize the irony of that statement. To start, without science, and the technology that makes use of it, you wouldn't have any leisure time. Then there's the fact that just about every leisure activity you enjoy, such as posting to AK on a PC over the internet to a central server and database, involved a huge amount of technology based on scientific research. Vinyl? Science. Tubes? Science. Transistors? Science. Jogging shoes? Science. Golf clubs? Science. ad infinitum...

 

[JohnVF]

I'm sure your realize the irony of that statement. To start, without science, and the technology that makes use of it, you wouldn't have any leisure time. Then there's the fact that just about every leisure activity you enjoy, such as posting to AK on a PC over the internet to a central server and database, involved a huge amount of technology based on scientific research. Vinyl? Science. Tubes? Science. Transistors? Science. Jogging shoes? Science. Golf clubs? Science. ad infinitum...

What I meant by that was I don't care for science being applied to my end of it. As in, needing science to prove or disprove whatever my subjective takeaway is. Of course I want science and engineering applied to the design of the gear..I really didn't mean that to sound like I don't think science has a place in the physical pieces of gear we listen to. It's the enjoyment, and end-user evaluation that I don't really think needs scrutiny. And I say end-user because I think DBX tests, and A-B tests of some sort, can be used to great effect in the design of loudspeakers, amps, etc from an engineering aspect. For them to be used to prove a point or agenda...that agenda often being that none of this science that goes into the design is audible...well, I really see no point in it. Personally.

 

[chicks]

Gotcha - just a little friendly ribbing

 

[RayW]

What your going to be hearing is the amps interaction with a certain speaker. Not amp differences. Meaning an amp that handles the speaker load better will sound better.

You would have to use fullrange drivers and no crossovers on your test. Which is what I said earlier, when you use an active crossover before amplification and conect the amps directly to the speakers, differences I have noticed with those amps on passive set ups are undetectable.

Why do you think a single driver would be an easier load than a multi-driver speaker? You will still have at least one impedance peak down low (1 in a sealed box, 2 in a ported one) that can be up to an order of magnitude higher than nominal. You will still have an inductive rise as frequency goes up. You are still going to have a load that amps may drive differently.

The only speakers I've seen with reasonably innocuous impedance curves are true ribbons and the best was probably the Duetta II from Apogee which had a crossover. Even with a ribbon you're going to have panel resonances and cavity resonances that show up in the impedance.

 

[Brett a]

Everybody comfy in their seats?

Objectivists, are your chairs aligned properly for the dimensions of your femurs and tibulas (Don't forget, you need to account for the height of the Calcaneus bone and the variable fleshiness of the Peroneal Retinaculum (both superior and inferior)

Subjectivist, you feeling alright about they amount and softness of the cushion? Gettin' a good enough vibe from the person sitting next to you? Does your drink feel like the right temperature in your hand?

Excellent. Because we ain't going anywhere from here.

I really think there conversations are less useful than we assume. For those of us who have the benefit of listening to gear in our own systems before paying for it, I’m not sure they are useful at all. When I took home 5 different loaner amps (integratededs) from my local shop, I was able to buy the one I liked best for every reason (sound, looks, build quality, price). And I was able to compare it to the stack of “vintage” gear I had (and still have) on hand. –no harm dome.
What there conversations might be helpful for is to keep anyone from making an uninformed decision to blindly buy an amp for silly-money (IMO, north of $8k)

Still, its up to every individual to decide what is of value. I’ve argued, and will continue to argue, that looks, brand name, dealer relationship, weight, etc, are all valid considerations when making a decision. And people will and do pay extra for qualities other than sound. That’s not a problem.

At this point, I think these conversations are just people of irreconcilable world-views trying to convert each other to their side.—it rarely happens. And when it does, it usually plays out as a former “objectivist” realizes for him or herself that cables (for instance) actually DO affect the sound of a system.

I don’t think I’ve ever come across anyone (even on Audioholics) who says they used to perceive a difference in cables, but after reading all the test reports realized they can’t.

My $0.02 (albeit a bit snarky)

 

[gkimeng]

imo. the only way a blind test would really be effective is if the amplifiers could be switched within a instant, ofcoarce them both playing at the same volume level,
hearing a full song doesent work either, simply because the song goes through too manny changes over time.

There are other methods of blind testing used in product development. Different test units can be packaged in identical generic forms and sent home with testers who spend longer periods comparing "A" and "B" under normal use and recording their impressions over time, with the pairs being switched out periodically (and with some pairs being "control" pairs that have two of the same item). This method is frequently used by companies evaluating possible variations in products, such as different coatings on razor blades or ink formulas in pens.

 

[JohnVF]

There are other methods of blind testing used in product development. Different test units can be packaged in identical generic forms and sent home with testers who spend longer periods comparing "A" and "B" under normal use and recording their impressions over time, with the pairs being switched out periodically (and with some pairs being "control" pairs that have two of the same item). This method is frequently used by companies evaluating possible variations in products, such as different coatings on razor blades or ink formulas in pens.

Were that methodology applied to the audio ABX tests we always fight about, I wouldn't have much to disagree with. I feel you should evaluate audio gear in the environment and system you are familiar with, with music you are used to, over a lengthy time period. The kind of testing you describe seems to fit most of those parameters. I still wouldn't be interested in doing it, but can see the point in it, at least, because the point doesn't seem to be an agenda.

 

[RayW]

Still, its up to every individual to decide what is of value. I’ve argued, and will continue to argue, that looks, brand name, dealer relationship, weight, etc, are all valid considerations when making a decision. And people will and do pay extra for qualities other than sound. That’s not a problem.

Absolutely true. However, when the OP asks about the sound of amplifiers then the discussion should center around the sound.

At this point, I think these conversations are just people of irreconcilable world-views trying to convert each other to their side.—it rarely happens. And when it does, it usually plays out as a former “objectivist” realizes for him or herself that cables (for instance) actually DO affect the sound of a system.

Without discussions like this we would likely sit staring at blank screens. If we all accept that our opinions mean nothing to anyone other than ourselves and resolve to not voice them then there is no reason for AK to exist. Without our differences in perception and thinking, conversation would be one person saying "I like the Binford X9000 amp." and 88,000 people replying "+1". I say viva la difference!

 

[Brett a]

Without discussions like this we would likely sit staring at blank screens. If we all accept that our opinions mean nothing to anyone other than ourselves and resolve to not voice them then there is no reason for AK to exist. Without our differences in perception and thinking, conversation would be one person saying "I like the Binford X9000 amp." and 88,000 people replying "+1". I say viva la difference!

I know. I do agree. I just get to feeling snarky about it sometimes.
It's all in good fun. It is a hobby after all.

 

[chicks]

Just for reference, here's a definition of ABX testing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test

Looks like QSC made a commercial device for audio ABX testing for a few years.

 

[JohnVF]

Just for reference, here's a definition of ABX testing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test

Looks like QSC made a commercial device for audio ABX testing for a few years.

I realized when you posted that that I had been writing DBX test. What would that be? Extreme double blind! Not only do we hide the gear switch, we gouge your eyes out just to make sure.

 

[marc mc]

Why do you think a single driver would be an easier load than a multi-driver speaker? You will still have at least one impedance peak down low (1 in a sealed box, 2 in a ported one) that can be up to an order of magnitude higher than nominal. You will still have an inductive rise as frequency goes up. You are still going to have a load that amps may drive differently.

The only speakers I've seen with reasonably innocuous impedance curves are true ribbons and the best was probably the Duetta II from Apogee which had a crossover. Even with a ribbon you're going to have panel resonances and cavity resonances that show up in the impedance.

Ray my point is simply that HE fullrangers are very easy to drive. Therefore the gains of massive amps like Bryston 4B's which can handle crazy loads won't be an advantage over a 35 watt Arcam like it is with an 87db sensitivity speaker. When I hooked my Mac 2105 up to my Clements they sang like never before. But it wasn't the amp! It was the match. The 2105 was merely OK with other speakers.

I understand people looking for magical combos. I used to as well and ran a few systems with them. My point is now that I run active I find that every amp with every driver is a magical combo that dwarfs the combos from the passive days. That is why I contributed to this thread and that is why I said I cannot tell any difference in amp sound on any active sytem I run.

I try to explain to guys that the upgrade of active makes all these things like cables and amps a distant memory. Every upgrade I ever made combined would not equal half the upgrade going active made.

marc mc

 

[Will S.]

What I meant by that was I don't care for science being applied to my end of it. As in, needing science to prove or disprove whatever my subjective takeaway is. Of course I want science and engineering applied to the design of the gear..I really didn't mean that to sound like I don't think science has a place in the physical pieces of gear we listen to. It's the enjoyment, and end-user evaluation that I don't really think needs scrutiny. And I say end-user because I think DBX tests, and A-B tests of some sort, can be used to great effect in the design of loudspeakers, amps, etc from an engineering aspect. For them to be used to prove a point or agenda...that agenda often being that none of this science that goes into the design is audible...well, I really see no point in it. Personally.

The point is that if we understand what truly makes one amp different from another, we become better consumers and can spend our money where it matters most.

For example, if a more expensive amplifier has a big honking power supply that allows it to double its power output at four ohms, then it is going to be better with my four ohm speakers than a cheaper amp that doesn't double its power even though they have the same power rating at eight ohms. For my eight ohm speakers the cheaper amp might be a better purchase which leaves me more money that I can spend on the most important upgrade: recorded music.

 

[RayW]

Marc, please note that I'm not saying you haven't heard or aren't hearing a difference, massive or otherwise. I'm only pointing out that your logic for why you're hearing it doesn't really make sense, technically speaking. A single, high efficiency driver will still have artifacts that will make a difference with some amps. Take for instance the Seas Exotic X1-08. It's a driver that costs >$800. The impedance ranges from a low of somewhere around 6Ω to a resonance peak of >50Ω. Amps with different output impedances are going to have different transfer characteristics into that load.

The fact that you're not hearing any difference simply means that your system is not of high enough resolution or your ears are simply not good enough. Sorry, just had to put that in there for the subjectivist crowd.

I can't say for sure why you're not hearing a difference in amps in your setup when you do hear differences in those same amps in another setup with passive crossovers, but I can say that I doubt it's because of the loading of the amps. That will be a factor no matter what scheme you use to drive them.