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Do DAC's that measure roughly the same sound different?

whell

whell

AK Subscriber
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Interesting article from someone who set up his own ABX testing setup to see if he could notice the difference.


The result is interesting but probably not unexpected. Can differences be reliably identified using appropriate testing methodology? Yes, it's possible. Are those differences significant (statistically or otherwise)? Probably not as much as audio manufacturers' marketing departments want us to believe.
 
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On ASR the mantra is
“DACs don’t have a sound”
I know they emit an analog signal so there is that, but it may not matter at all for some/most
It may be psycho acoustics but I find the soundstage of R2R to be more immersive and deeper and wider but the SINAD suffers so no R2R is acceptable if that is the measure
The center image is imaginary but I am addicted to it and the recording must provide it
ABX testing and Audio Scientology supports the notion that we should all have $100 Topping DACS and I could live with that but in a related area, better recordings sound better which is axiomatic and I prefer R2R
It will never happen but I would love to audition a Playback Designs MPD8
 
Middle Earth said:
Audio Scientology supports the notion that we should all have $100 Topping DACS...
Click to expand...

I'm not sure all the Audio Science devotees walk that walk. There's a thread over there called "Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?" that was started by Amir going on 6 years ago. Its still going strong through 2026 year to date and is chock full of folks who admit to subjective preferences.
 
I will put a response in that thread, not provocative, and let’s see how that goes and how it is received
 
The Audio Scientologists are already hard at work on this exact link from the OP
I just found it and my post is percolating in the Master thread referenced above that exists to keep the subjectivists at bay and I am disappointed that no one was triggered or I was not threatened to be banned again
We are late to the game so just get the $100 Topping DAC as digital has been solved
Have not been on ASR for awhile and the thread is bemusing

www.audiosciencereview.com

DAC audible differences are finally proven with ABX?

Or are they? Interesting experiment with positive results (according to the author): https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/can-i-tell-audibly-transparent-dacs-apart-blind-testing-with-the-van-alstine-abx-comparator-r1440/ As such, the results seem very convincing. In all the tests the...
www.audiosciencereview.com www.audiosciencereview.com
 
Middle Earth said:
The Audio Scientologists are already hard at work on this exact link from the OP
I just found it and my post is percolating in the Master thread referenced above that exists to keep the subjectivists at bay and I am disappointed that no one was triggered or I was not threatened to be banned again
We are late to the game so just get the $100 Topping DAC as digital has been solved
Have not been on ASR for awhile and the thread is bemusing

www.audiosciencereview.com

DAC audible differences are finally proven with ABX?

Or are they? Interesting experiment with positive results (according to the author): https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/can-i-tell-audibly-transparent-dacs-apart-blind-testing-with-the-van-alstine-abx-comparator-r1440/ As such, the results seem very convincing. In all the tests the...
www.audiosciencereview.com www.audiosciencereview.com
Click to expand...
Those dudes are some of the sourist, most unhappy dudes around. Must suck to have to listen to gear that sounds like ass and like it.
 
IMO, to accurately measure the output of a DAC one would need to do a very detailed three axis topography of its output signal at a minimum. Then meticulously compare one DAC's output to another. Even then, somehow there would have to be an account made for how each person's auditory system and brain processes sound waves. Why would sound be any different than smell or taste when it comes to personal preferences or how sound is perceived? For me, whether DACs that measure the same can sound different is irrelevant because the fact that there are so many DACs sold seems to have answered this question. Measurements and the sound "signature" do not necessarily show the same results as interpreted by the individual. Speakers, amps, etc. can measure the same and there are still personal preferences for them. I don't think sound signatures of audio equipment is worth arguing over. There are too many unknowns involved in the process of humans perceiving sound to come close to getting a definitive answer on the topic.
 
I think every forum has its own sort of flavor and cliquish 'norms.'

(I like Auduioscientologists! I will change from calling them the Asperger's Syndrome Regiment.)

To over-generalize:

ASR, Hydrogen Audio...they like them their measurements and a focus on minimizing/squelching individual idiosyncrasies. Sort of a cookie cutter approach where once they get a certain "SINAD," their desktop systems become 'finished business' and everything sounds the same, no matter how different it sounds. They police the population looking for any heretical notions of subjective listening as part of the fun. (All cables, fuses, interconnects, etc. are the same, no argument.)

What's Best Forum: More cost = more better. Lots of social positioning with price being the arbiter of performance. There is a certain product clique that qualifies for joining the 'best' group, and they police the crowd to make sure that affordable audio is not allowed to be considered part of what's 'best.' "Everything matters," but only within the constraints of what has already been established as mattering. Point out the strict borders they enforce and more policing commences. (All cables, fuses, interconnects, etc. are ten veils different and the more they cost, the obviously better they become, no argument.) Lots of jockeying for position, so to speak.

Hi Fi Haven: Nice folks all along the spectrum, and value placed on personal perspectives. Members look to be generally supportive of one another and congeniality is emphasized. A calm forum, in general! Great DIY chat and help.

Audio Karma: A bustling burg of enthusiasm, with emphasis on the golden age of audio - the glory of tubes all the way through when SS changed in the 1980s into the modern era of disposable products. Vintage receivers revered and the value of keeping fine gear alive and well is respected. All budgets allowed, mush less price flexing, and a great mix of hobby talk and flat out socializing. Kind of the hub of the "all around joy" of the hobby. Great DIY chat and help.

Of note: the commerce portions of Hi Fi Haven and Audio Karma are loaded with hobbyists who aren't out to squeeze every penny they can out of fellow members. There seems to be a true desire to maintain high levels of joy and accessibility on these two site! You can probably guess my favorite two sites.
I can't emphasize this next thing enough: :beerchug: I would host/toast with anybody I've met here!
 
Honestly, I appreciate the Audio Science for what it does. Measurements are an objective data point for those shopping for gear, I made an amplifier purchase informed in part by information from Amir's review. Measurements weren’t the only data point considered, but the info Amir provided taken together with other info ultimately helped me make an informed choice.
 
Enophile said:
ASR, Hydrogen Audio...they like them their measurements and a focus on minimizing/squelching individual idiosyncrasies. Sort of a cookie cutter approach
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I like ASR for their data and measurements but I must agree with the cookie cutter approach. If everyone followed their advices, we'd all end up with $200 bookshelf speakers and a cheap class D amp. As if I'm denaturing the artist's intention by playing songs on my beloved HPM-200...
 
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Nkuruma said:
I like ASR for their data and measurements but I must agree with the cookie cutter approach. If everyone followed their advices, we'd all end up with $200 bookshelf speakers and a cheap class D amp. As if I'm denaturing the artist's intention by playing songs on my beloved HPM-200...
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Dunno about the speaker aspect, but there certainly seems to be somewhat of a groundswell on cheap (relatively speaking) class D amps displacing more traditional amps in a place one might not expect, and that place is here.
 
whoaru99 said:
Dunno about the speaker aspect, but there certainly seems to be somewhat of a groundswell on cheap (relatively speaking) class D amps displacing more traditional amps in a place one might not expect, and that place is here.
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The term "class D" needs to have a BC/AD type of time distinction where the demarcation year is 2023. This was when the TPA3255 amp chip started being utilized in well designed, budget friendly amps. Since then this genre of class D amps has exploded. You are right about there being a growing group of people here who have moved to these amps replacing very good vintage components with them. Now, not only high value amps are being produced but also DACs, pre-amps, integrated amps, streamers, turntables, CD players, etc. IMO, this is a very good thing to happen in the audio industry. It is giving far more people the ability to get into hi-fi and/or upgrade to better components for very little cost. I don't think it has been more affordable to have a very good sounding audio system than ever in the past which is a very good thing.
 
Funny thing. I built a blind test box (not an ABX setup) consisting of a speaker relay and a toggle clicker. Press the clicker a few times to lose track of the input selected and then click away to try to hear differences. I also found the relay made a distinct sound when clicking so I rewired it with two relays that alternate masking their differences. And I added soundproofing. I did three comparison tests in which I only reliably detected a tube amp versus my reference amp (Philips DFA888). As I tested over my speakers I level matched with a test tone and SPL meter.
 
whoaru99 said:
Dunno about the speaker aspect, but there certainly seems to be somewhat of a groundswell on cheap (relatively speaking) class D amps displacing more traditional amps in a place one might not expect, and that place is here.
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Amp technology has changed relatively little until very recently. OldJBL is right about needing a line of demarcation recognizing when amp technology began to significantly change. I'd probably push the line of demarcation a bit further back to the mid 1990's when the first Tripath chip was introduced. Today's chip based amps owe much to the Tripath chip as a source of their "primordial DNA".

My two current daily driver amps are chip-based mono block amps that to my ear sound every bit as good as the conventional solid state amps they replaced. They consume little power, pump out a lot of wattage, and politely put themselves to sleep when not in use, and do it all for a fraction of the cost of their conventional amp cousins.

Nkuruma said:
I like ASR for their data and measurements but I must agree with the cookie cutter approach. If everyone followed their advices, we'd all end up with $200 bookshelf speakers and a cheap class D amp. As if I'm denaturing the artist's intention by playing songs on my beloved HPM-200...
Click to expand...

I think it's a bit more than that. Those of us that live through the 60's - 80's in the US have seen all this before.

We watched US manufacturers get squeezed out of the consumer hifi marketplace by Japanese imports. The Yen was trading at a favorable rate to the US Dollar, Japan was enjoying a manufacturing resurgence, and US manufacturers were slow to adapt. The US manufacturers hifi manufacturers that survived did so by moving up market, leaving the the mass market hifi to the Japanese.

Chinese hifi is hitting the world markets in a similar manner. Their approach is different, however. The tech has changed significantly allowing the Chinese to parlay their lower manufacturing costs with technological advancements that allow today's consumer level hifi to perform competitively with some really good upmarket gear.
 
whell said:
Amp technology has changed relatively little until very recently. OldJBL is right about needing a line of demarcation recognizing when amp technology began to significantly change. I'd probably push the line of demarcation a bit further back to the mid 1990's when the first Tripath chip was introduced. Today's chip based amps owe much to the Tripath chip as a source of their "primordial DNA".
Click to expand...

I was thinking back to 2000-ish when the Equibit/TI PurePath stuff started making a bigger scene, to my awareness anyway. But, I agree in general it goes back a bit farther.

Panasonic SA-XR55 which I still have and still works in the early(?) 2000s, then the TPA3116, later TPA3255, and that's not counting the ICEpower, Hypex, PuriFi, and whatever else has come along in the mix that's not mentioned. Although, some of those are stretching the "cheap class D" sorta thing.
 
whoaru99 said:
I was thinking back to 2000-ish when the Equibit/TI PurePath stuff started making a bigger scene, to my awareness anyway. But, I agree in general it goes back a bit farther.

Panasonic SA-XR55 which I still have and still works in the early(?) 2000s, then the TPA3116, later TPA3255, and that's not counting the ICEpower, Hypex, PuriFi, and whatever else has come along in the mix that's not mentioned. Although, some of those are stretching the "cheap class D" sorta thing.
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I remember that Panasonic. When it came out, it made quite a splash and everyone who was into audio wanted to hear what it was about. And then class-D started to be used in a big way in car audio.

I recall hearing a BMW dealer admitting that the system sounded "hard" (his words not mine) when my friend was car shopping and told him that we were into audio. I never had a class-D anything or a BMW.
 
As far as DACs all sounding the same, I find that premise to be lunacy. First off, different chips can sound vastly apart depending on their implementation, and the power supplies inside the gear play a huge role. As has been mentioned, the analog section of a DAC is a crucial part of the final outcome. Perhaps the most crucial.

Also, let us remember that certain chips allow for multiple filters, DSP, or other features to be utilized or not. Just check out the datasheets.
 
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