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Do I have "PRAT"??

62sunbeam

Raconteur
Sure as Shinola sounds like it!

I moved my PF-1000 into my office system and while my PS-8750 always sounds amazing I have to say this sounds pretty dam nice. I have a GAS Sleeping Beauty on each.

While I've heard some pretty fantastic systems I don't know if I've ever heard a good example of "prat".

I wonder if this really great sound is what I hear called "PRAT".

I've had or currently have offerings from Thorens, Ariston and Dual and none of them match the sound I get from my Japanese tables.

Eric

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Didn't matter to the Japanese, direct drive or belt drive, they could build the best of either and I'm sure they both sound dynamic with the GAS Sleeping Beauty.
 
Frankly, if you use a term like that, I'd say you are one!.:D It's a term invented by hi-fi reviewers who shouldn't be in the game. But to answer your question, your turntable is one of the best.
 
Frankly, if you use a term like that, I'd say you are one!.:D It's a term invented by hi-fi reviewers who shouldn't be in the game. But to answer your question, your turntable is one of the best.

I agree, after reading up on 'PRAT' I still didn't understand it completely. So I decided that I had it and I was one. My system and I are full of it!:D
 
I agree, after reading up on 'PRAT' I still didn't understand it completely. So I decided that I had it and I was one. My system and I are full of it!:D

There is a reason for not understanding 'PRAT' , it´s because it´s made up, it doesn´t mean anything. Besides that I sometimes feel I´m full of it. Or maybe it´s the beer, I don´t know.
gusten
 
There is a reason for not understanding 'PRAT' , it´s because it´s made up, it doesn´t mean anything. Besides that I sometimes feel I´m full of it. Or maybe it´s the beer, I don´t know.
gusten

I think you hit it right on the head Gusten with or without beer:D I think it is short for prattle:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=7&gs_id=6l&xhr=t&q=prattle&pf=p&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=prattle&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=fe2819027d67eb6c&biw=1388&bih=911
 
I'm well aware of the pretense associated with the term and quite frankly I tend to follow my ear and my taste in order to achieve what I feel is my ultimate listening experience.

I'm very happy with how my current setup sounds. Hell I was happy with my PS-8750. I've had lot's of the "recommended" idlers and Thorens decks along the way and while they were all very nice (except for the 1219 which was less than impressive) none have sounded as full and dynamic as either of these two decks or my LT-30 or my QL-Y5F and they supposedly were capable of the elusive and much desired "PRAT".

I'm not even really sure what "PRAT" is. I'm just saying that if those decks have it and my hi tech Japanese decks don't I'm not sure I want it.

I'm off to work but later today I plan on an oldfashioned and a little vinyl.

Eric
 
I wonder if this really great sound is what I hear called "PRAT".

I've had or currently have offerings from Thorens, Ariston and Dual and none of them match the sound I get from my Japanese tables.

Just a cut-and-paste from an old thread, which itself contained a cut-and-paste from an even older thread:

PRaT has been used in a non-descriptive way. But when you consider that it's really three attributes (pace, rhythm, and timing), not just one, it can be a way of more accurately describing a component's performance. Others have described it better than I can, but FWIW, here's one I posted a couple years ago:

"In short, I would say that "pace" essentially is the flow or tempo, the speed, at which music is played. Rhythm refers to the beat or time signature of the music. It's been a long time since I permanently escaped piano lessons, but I remember being told always to practice using the correct rhythm even if at a slower tempo or pace; the pace can be picked up, using the same rhythm, after better learning the notes. Timing is related to Linn's question to prospective buyers, "Do all the musicians seem to be playing together?" In other words, is their playing synchronized with the given beat."

Not to belabor the issue, but the best way for me to describe, at least to myself, the differences I heard between some 'tables I've recently owned or auditioned is to say that the Rega was exceptionally good with rhythm, a bit worse in pace, and was relatively weak in timing; the WTRP was exceptional in presentation of pace, decent with rhythm, and also had a relative weakness in timing; my LP12 was not as good as either the Rega or the WTRP in their particular areas of strength, but did all three attributes fairly well.

The most-cited reference article on attributes such as pace and rhythm has been Martin Colloms's article in Stereophile:
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/23/index.html

People who prattle on about PRaT typically consider sonic attributes such as soundstaging, transparency, imaging and extreme detail recovery to be "non-musical sonic artifacts of the recording process" (according to Jeff Day of 6 Moons), and are more focused on how well a component or system retains and communicates music's beat, rhythm, and melody.

Edit: Audio vocabulary terms, such as PRaT, are simply a means to communicate with other hobbyists about what we hear. No component is perfect, and it's perfectly fine for people to disagree about what sounds better. The terminology just helps us explain why. To take a common example, an SL1200 could be seen as either better or worse than a Rega Planar 3. I might say the Rega is better because its strengths in rhythm and pace are more important to me than the Technics's superiority in timing and speed stability; someone else could justifiably take the opposite point of view, or consider the two 'tables with completely different attributes that are more important to them. There is nothing pretentious about PRaT, it's just an attempt to describe what we hear.
 
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There is a reason for not understanding 'PRAT' , it´s because it´s made up, it doesn´t mean anything. Besides that I sometimes feel I´m full of it. Or maybe it´s the beer, I don´t know.
gusten

It seems nothing other than measurements means much of anything to you....
 
Pace, rhythm and timing seems to me to be things that could be affected by a defective source component, but if your source components aren't defective, then it's up to your source software and the involved musicians and engineers.

I think that the writers use the term to describe something they hear, but that the terms are often poorly chosen. I've long thought that audio writers should just make up words that don't already have meanings to describe various audible phenomena and get together to agree upon which made up word should apply to which phenomena. That would cut down on confusion related to using words that already have other meanings.
 
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Just a cut-and-paste from an old thread, which itself contained a cut-and-paste from an even older thread:

PRaT has been used in a non-descriptive way. But when you consider that it's really three attributes (pace, rhythm, and timing), not just one, it can be a way of more accurately describing a component's performance. Others have described it better than I can, but FWIW, here's one I posted a couple years ago:

"In short, I would say that "pace" essentially is the flow or tempo, the speed, at which music is played. Rhythm refers to the beat or time signature of the music. It's been a long time since I permanently escaped piano lessons, but I remember being told always to practice using the correct rhythm even if at a slower tempo or pace; the pace can be picked up, using the same rhythm, after better learning the notes. Timing is related to Linn's question to prospective buyers, "Do all the musicians seem to be playing together?" In other words, is their playing synchronized with the given beat."

Not to belabor the issue, but the best way for me to describe, at least to myself, the differences I heard between some 'tables I've recently owned or auditioned is to say that the Rega was exceptionally good with rhythm, a bit worse in pace, and was relatively weak in timing; the WTRP was exceptional in presentation of pace, decent with rhythm, and also had a relative weakness in timing; my LP12 was not as good as either the Rega or the WTRP in their particular areas of strength, but did all three attributes fairly well.

The most-cited reference article on attributes such as pace and rhythm has been Martin Colloms's article in Stereophile:
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/23/index.html

People who prattle on about PRaT typically consider sonic attributes such as soundstaging, transparency, imaging and extreme detail recovery to be "non-musical sonic artifacts of the recording process" (according to Jeff Day of 6 Moons), and are more focused on how well a component or system retains and communicates music's beat, rhythm, and melody.

Edit: Audio vocabulary terms, such as PRaT, are simply a means to communicate with other hobbyists about what we hear. No component is perfect, and it's perfectly fine for people to disagree about what sounds better. The terminology just helps us explain why. To take a common example, an SL1200 could be seen as either better or worse than a Rega Planar 3. I might say the Rega is better because its strengths in rhythm and pace are more important to me than the Technics's superiority in timing and speed stability; someone else could justifiably take the opposite point of view, or consider the two 'tables with completely different attributes that are more important to them. There is nothing pretentious about PRaT, it's just an attempt to describe what we hear.

To the POs quoted passage I do take strong exception to the highlighted assertion. Without the attributes excepted it's just pleasant musical mush without these cues that convey a live experience.
 
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It seems nothing other than measurements means much of anything to you....

No, that is not the case. Measuring is usually quite boring, at best it´s a tool for improvements, whatever measurements it might be.

As to the 'PRAT', what we can possible strive for, and hope for, is a sound that will be close to the master tapes. So in reality it all comes down to how they sounded. IMHO.
gusten
 
what we can possible strive for, and hope for, is a sound that will be close to the master tapes. So in reality it all comes down to how they sounded. IMHO.
gusten

That's what I'm aiming for, nothing more and nothing less. Now if I can just get my hands on the original master tapes of KOB, and the gear to play it on.:scratch2:

On second thought, I think I'll end up settling for less. Much less, in all likelihood.
 
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Just my opinion but the way I see PRAT is music and not sound, so which do you have, really great music or really great sound?

Dave/ChairSpud
 
Pace, rhythm and timing seems to me to be things that could be affected by a defective source component, but if your source components aren't defective, then it's up to your source software and the involved musicians and engineers.

I think that the writers use the term to describe something they hear, but that the terms are often poorly chosen. I've long thought that audio writers should just make up words that don't already have meanings to describe various audible phenomena and get together to agree upon which made up word should apply to which phenomena. That would cut down on confusion related to using words that already have other meanings.

Writers have the task of conveying what they hear, experience, and feel about a component or system through the written word, which is not a linear event. The task can be quite tricky, for music in many respects is an emotional event, and transferring those feelings and provoked sensations is not easy. This is especially true for equipment reviews, since the writer is often trying to convey subtle differences, or juxtapose the performance of one component to another, and give the reader a relative reference point in terms of sound and value. Quite often writers/reviewers get bashed on the audio boards for their articles, but most people don't even try their hand at the process. Writing a comprehensive review even for an audio site, provides some perspective on how challenging the task can be. Take into account that a writer does this several times a year, and that every person out there is trying to dissect his/her grammar, style, and hidden agenda...well it makes it certainly compounds the difficulty factor.

That would cut down on confusion related to using words that already have other meanings.

The English language, and darn near every other language I know of, has words with multiple meanings. People fluent in these languages have little difficulty understanding the various connotations, and can infer intent quite consistently. It should be no different in terms of audio related writings. Actually in some ways the methods of using alternate meanings works very well for this task, since the goal is to find words that have a shared meaning or feeling that is used in our everyday life, and can be applied to audio gear. For it creates a frame of reference. Yes there can be confusion as things do not translate literally, but it does have the potential of being an effective means of passing along an experience or feeling. While some of the metaphors may get stretched, I am not a fan of food descriptors, I can certainly read them and decipher what the writer is trying to convey. From my perspective it seems to work just fine.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
No, that is not the case. Measuring is usually quite boring, at best it´s a tool for improvements, whatever measurements it might be.

As to the 'PRAT', what we can possible strive for, and hope for, is a sound that will be close to the master tapes. So in reality it all comes down to how they sounded. IMHO.
gusten

Very well put, gusten. It is sad to see some people here want to make fun of us just because we strive to use CLEAR ways to convey what we hear in the sound, instead of resorting to esoteric, unclear terms like "pace, rhythm and timing" or "foot-tapping potential".
 
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