Do I have "PRAT"??
- Thread starter 62sunbeam
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PickyEars81
Super Member
What is this GoY of which ye speak?
PickyEars81
Super Member
I think prat, or rather a lack thereof can be caused by a less than desirable component in the system. Something isn't doing it's job very well or the music would sound as it should.
In some cases, I think a perceived increase in prat could also be do to a component not working correctly - for instance a turntable that runs slightly faster than it's supposed to might have more "toe tapping" quality...
In some cases, I think a perceived increase in prat could also be do to a component not working correctly - for instance a turntable that runs slightly faster than it's supposed to might have more "toe tapping" quality...
rcspkramp
Super Member
Nice lyrics, great beat and you can dance to it. I'll give it a 9.
Dave Brubeck would certainly approve of 7/4 ... or he might even make it more challenging to perform by doing it in 13/8.
flavio81
Turntable technician
"Amateur!" says Frank Zappa, while Conlon Nancarrow laughs in the background.
I'm impressed! Anyone who can progress beyond 'kiitos' is anything but a prat. Has to be one of the hardest languages to learn.
I would only argue that the effect of turntable/tonearm combinations on PRaT is not insubstantial. Ken Lyon (some of us in these forums have enjoyed his Neuance isolation platforms), in a footnote to a post in another forum, once placed some popular turntables on a continuum, "BTW -IMO the Michell is closer to the VPI in terms of rhythmic/timing behaviors than you assume. If there were a continuum to be drawn, with the LP12, P9 and Xerxes at one end and the VPI's and Basis at the other, the mid ground would be composed of the Oracles nearer the Linn and the Gyro's toward the VPI. I would consider the Michells to be satisfactory but hardly exemplary examples of PRAT qualities. Their virtues lie in other musical and sonic portrayals."
Like you, Mark Wheeler, in an article for TNT-Audio, also emphasized the impact of speakers, saying, "The most sinful adulterers of timing tend to be multi-way loudspeakers." He also made the interesting observations that some people simply are not as aware of, or attuned to, some of these qualities as other people are, and that finding a turntable that does everything well is an ongoing search.
"Some people are as impervious to rhythm as some people are to pitch (the latter are therefore referred to as 'tone deaf'). Rhythm awareness can be learned, which is why music teachers encourage pupils to clap in time to music. When I suffered a severe brain injury in 1998 I completely lost my awareness of time and my sense of rhythm; I couldn't tell a cd player from my Linn Sondek except by its tonality. At the time I was suffering from loss of income due to not being able to work and was forced to sell many of my possessions including my Linn that had lost its key feature to my ears. It was an interesting insight into the experience of others for whom rhythm is unimportant and demonstrated to me how timbre, tonal accuracy and low colouration become far more significant under such circumstances. The experience of listening to familiar music without a well developed sense of rhythm; I found that different recordings became my favourite daily plays. I practiced bass guitar to try to regain some of my sense of rhythm and timing as well as my left-right coordination. I am glad to say that I succeeded in recovering my sense of rhythm & time even if I didn't succeed in learning to play bass, but now I demand timbre, tonal accuracy and low colouration as well as PRaT. Tough. The search for the turntable that does both is still on." http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html
stereofanboy
Addicted Member
Jrtrent, that quote is the most interesting thing in this thread so far. I am one of those people to whom timbral accuracy is of high importance rather than space cues and PRaT. I never considered brain damage as a possible explanation!
If I hear something where the timing isn't just right, I am more likely to blame the original musicians than the gear, because I've played with some awful drummers in my life. Human error is pretty common in the musical world, just like any other field of endeavor. That isn't to say that timing issues aren't present in my gear, just how would I know that it was the gear and not the damn drummer?
If you other guys didn't click the link in jrtrent's prior post, go back and read it!
If I hear something where the timing isn't just right, I am more likely to blame the original musicians than the gear, because I've played with some awful drummers in my life. Human error is pretty common in the musical world, just like any other field of endeavor. That isn't to say that timing issues aren't present in my gear, just how would I know that it was the gear and not the damn drummer?
If you other guys didn't click the link in jrtrent's prior post, go back and read it!
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Arkay
Lunatic Member
I think it is unfortunate that the marketing "prats" (I think it was Ivor Tiefenbrun and his acolytes at Linn) who came up with the whole PRAT terminology, chose those terms and that acronym. When you examine closely what each word means in the music world (i.e., to musicians), it really has only a tangential relationship at best, to what the TT promoters were talking about: the sound of their turntables (when properly set up). Perhaps they honestly believed that what they were hearing that they liked, actually was the result of those three characteristics; I don't 
no, but I do think there was a certain quality that they were talking about, when using the term. I think that, because I think I've heard it with my own ears. I just don't agree with their explanation/interpretation of what they were hearing. But ultimately, that's neither very important, nor very relevant; the term "works" as a symbolic word for that sound quality.
Having heard that sound, and having once been a musician who has ideas about what those words mean (separately), I try to divorce the two things; that is, I try to distinguish what I understand by the separate terms "pace" and "rhythm" and "timing" vs. "PRaT" (=the overall "sound" of music when played on certain turntables). I use the capitalized acronym "PRAT" to refer to that characteristic ("Linn-like") sound quality, not to actually mean what the three terms refer to, when taken individually.
Those who right marketing slogans do not always understand the language they use, as well as they should. (The SyFy channel's "Imagine Greater", for example; what, EXACTLY, does that mean? A literate person could go nearly insane trying to make sense of it!). So I take PRAT to be a term to describe that certain type of sound, since it is difficult to describe such things with known terms. That's okay; we have an extremely limited vocabulary for describing smells, too, or even subtle shades of color.
I do KNOW one thing, though: The PF-1000 in the OP has oodles and oodles (another precise term of measurement!
) of that wonderful rich, toe-tapping, almost palpable sound that Ivor and the folks at Linn made such a big deal out of. I know this because I heard an A/B "face off" between its younger brother, the PF-800, and an LP-12... and to the ears of most present, and the great chagrin of one "Linnie" in particular, the edge undeniably went to the Yamaha. The test wasn't perfectly scientific in various details, but reasonably good and perhaps indicative.
So yes, I'd say you're probably hearing ample "PRAT" from that PF-1000. It's a very fine TT that mostly flies a bit "under the radar." Enjoy it!
...and when you're ready to upgrade, you won't have to leave the Yamaha brand family at all: just get a GT-2000. It has, about as nearly as anything can, PPPRaPT (Perfect Pace, Perfect Rhythm, and Perfect Timing). D
no, but I do think there was a certain quality that they were talking about, when using the term. I think that, because I think I've heard it with my own ears. I just don't agree with their explanation/interpretation of what they were hearing. But ultimately, that's neither very important, nor very relevant; the term "works" as a symbolic word for that sound quality.Having heard that sound, and having once been a musician who has ideas about what those words mean (separately), I try to divorce the two things; that is, I try to distinguish what I understand by the separate terms "pace" and "rhythm" and "timing" vs. "PRaT" (=the overall "sound" of music when played on certain turntables). I use the capitalized acronym "PRAT" to refer to that characteristic ("Linn-like") sound quality, not to actually mean what the three terms refer to, when taken individually.
Those who right marketing slogans do not always understand the language they use, as well as they should. (The SyFy channel's "Imagine Greater", for example; what, EXACTLY, does that mean? A literate person could go nearly insane trying to make sense of it!). So I take PRAT to be a term to describe that certain type of sound, since it is difficult to describe such things with known terms. That's okay; we have an extremely limited vocabulary for describing smells, too, or even subtle shades of color.
I do KNOW one thing, though: The PF-1000 in the OP has oodles and oodles (another precise term of measurement!
) of that wonderful rich, toe-tapping, almost palpable sound that Ivor and the folks at Linn made such a big deal out of. I know this because I heard an A/B "face off" between its younger brother, the PF-800, and an LP-12... and to the ears of most present, and the great chagrin of one "Linnie" in particular, the edge undeniably went to the Yamaha. The test wasn't perfectly scientific in various details, but reasonably good and perhaps indicative.So yes, I'd say you're probably hearing ample "PRAT" from that PF-1000. It's a very fine TT that mostly flies a bit "under the radar." Enjoy it!
...and when you're ready to upgrade, you won't have to leave the Yamaha brand family at all: just get a GT-2000. It has, about as nearly as anything can, PPPRaPT (Perfect Pace, Perfect Rhythm, and Perfect Timing). D
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bobbyonions
AK Member
It's annoying insider lingo to me. Even annoys me more than scroe.
bobbyonions
AK Member
I guess I just hate acronyms in general,, LOL!!
rnorton
Super Member
I spent an evening and much of the early morning with a lovely Finnish girl on a junk on Ha Long Bay last month, slugging Ha Noi rum. She tried to teach me some Finnish (her English was excellent) but between the rum and my lack of Finnish genes, I barely got past pronouncing her name correctly. A VERY hard language.
Although she was only 23, she was a big fan of the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix and the Doors. She thought most of what her generation listened to was complete crap. There's still hope for the world.
rnorton
Super Member
IMO, any turntable so far out of spec in respect to speed and flutter & wow that the effects are humanly perceivable as altered rhythm, belongs in the shop for belt or motor replacement.