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Do I have "PRAT"??

So one could say that "PRaT" is a combination of accuracy AND musicality. A combination of technical balance between components that renders a system emminantly listenable and enjoyable. Not necessarily the sole bastion of systems costing well into the thousands or that automatically require idler wheels?

Eric

Some may attempt to have you believe otherwise but I think you've offered as good a description as any. I regularly catch my self tapping my toes/fingers while listening to a wide variety of equipment much of it not on the originally "approved" PRaT lists. Maybe I'm a prat though.:scratch2:
 
That is the problem with co-opting words for other, previously unapplicable meanings, especially if there are already suitable words available.

The guy that came up with PRaT had something in his mind when he coined the phrase. Some of us think we know exactly what he meant. Some of those may be correct, but obviously not all, as they don't all think the same thing. We can see that just from the responses in this thread.

I like the definition offered in jrtrents link in post #53 of this thread. It sounds reasonable to me, and may even match up to what the originator was thinking.
 
Yeah, It's never going to be easy for everyone to agree on what terms describe what, and I like Rob's statement below.

"I am reminded of the 4 blind men describing an elephant"

So, spot on :)
 
The op does mention having a GAS Sleeping Beauty on there. As far as the stabilizer it sure looks like my version of the KAB. It's the less expensive $38 version not the RC-1200.

http://www.kabusa.com/usagrip.htm#CTOP

Ahh - so he did. Thanks, Muddy. Mine came with a Shure V15 type V, but I've been experimenting with some others.
Rather a pain in the arse as I only have one Yamaha headshell. I thought I'd be able to simply swap in some Denon straight arm shells I've got, but Yamaha uses different connectors.
 
Ahh - so he did. Thanks, Muddy. Mine came with a Shure V15 type V, but I've been experimenting with some others.
Rather a pain in the arse as I only have one Yamaha headshell. I thought I'd be able to simply swap in some Denon straight arm shells I've got, but Yamaha uses different connectors.

I'd love to hear a Yammie sometime. They certainly have a great rep and are cool looking to boot. Good luck with yours :music:
 
Yes it is a GAS Sleeping Beauty although I have as yet been unable to determine the stylus type. This one has the clear rubber sleeve. I have one with blue and one with red as well.

It is a KAB clamp. (it was dusty in the photo) I'd love to find the stock clamp/weight but I've had no luck.

Does anyone know the specs on the original so I can look for a similar one?

The non-standard headshell is my only peeve with this TT. Otherwise it's pretty fantastic.

Eric
 
I find that I can hear much 'deeper' into a recording with my latest TT project and all the desirable "musical" attributes are so enhanced that it is quite unlike the other TTs I have at present. The detailing is in contextual proportion and not in-your-face enhanced as is often the case.

The best attribute a turntable can have is to have no perceptible attributes at all. It should just get out of the way.
 
A component can measure really well, but sound like crap...

As far as I'm concerned, the term PRaT (Pace, Rhythm and Timing) is just another way to describe attributes of elements of the sound.
Really, a system can have incredible detail retrieval and image well with heaps of bass slam, but with all this can still sound as boring as bat **** at the same time, if it lacks certain other attributes!

For myself these elements and some others get us to that point where the sound is often called "musical"

A little OT, but something I found while on this journey is that a lot of detail in some systems (including mine in the past) presentation is artificial, but many folk still enjoy and strive to have it.

Hmm...end rant :D

How can we have more musicality than what is on the record? How can we have more detail than what is on the record? What components measure well but sound like crap?
gusten
 
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The fallacy is believing that all of us who believe that measurements don't tell the whole story, believe in some sort of musical voodoo, as is often alluded to. Many of us think that we're simply measuring things that tell only part of the story. And if that's the case, its quite easy for something to measure well and not sound good, because the standard measurements aren't complete, or at least, they're taken separately and don't tell the story as a whole, either for the unit or for the unit in context with everything else in a system.

A musical performance is not happening in your living room, and measuring it against the real thing also might not really be representative of what sounds good to everybody. So if something that is false, is enjoyed with a false addition of "musicality", then what's wrong with that?

Speaking of what's wrong. What's wrong with somebody simply enjoying something, and using a word that you wouldn't use? We have too many audio police. Just let people have their fun and pretend for a minute that you don't have the final say on how people spend their free time and listen to their own stereo, or how they choose to talk about it amongst their friends.
 
How can we have more musicality than what is on the record?

I don't think it's a matter of having more musicality than what's on the record, but of some designs preserving more of what's there than others. For example, turntable designs using high mass are believed by some to lose "musicality." The afore-mentioned Ken Lyon once wrote, ". . . if the mass is high, ever larger amounts of energy will be stored and rereleased back into the system, droning over a prolonged period and altering both time and amplitude related functions of the signal." The little VPI Scout is believed by many to be their best-sounding model, possibly because it's smaller and lighter than the others. Art Dudley found the Scout more musical than a larger, more expensive VPI he had auditioned previously. In his review of the Scout, he said:

"One song was all it took—one verse, if you want to know the truth—to know that the Scout/JMW combination did an excellent job of getting the notes off the record and weaving them into believable, convincing, rhythmically involving music. . . In other words, the VPI combo did something that I used to consider the sole province of such generally low-mass, generally undamped British record players as the Linns, Roksans, Pink Triangles, and Regas: The VPI played music, and did so convincingly."

And here are some additional excerpts from an old forum post by Ken Lyon. Over on Vinyl Asylum, it's possible to find some detailed explanations from Ken on why certain designs (Roksan Xerxes and Linn LP12) succeed in preserving more PRaT than some others (Michell, Oracle, VPI):

"The design parameters of the turntable fixes a turntables potential ability to preserve pace ,rhythm and timing functions. Most turntable designs completely neglect important performance parameters involved with maintaining locational and dynamic relationships between the sub components in the vinyl replay chain. . .

PRaT is not a sonic feature added to the presentation but rather the prevention of temporally related alterations to the signal.

PRaT is not a single entity but rather several individual related properties lumped together and that combined term is often misused by the ignorant- ie- the footapping thing which is primarily rhythmic.

I am continually amazed to discover the number of folks who regularly use the term PRaT and even support the issue and yet haven't isolated its subcomponents. A device can possess good rhythm and yet clobber pace or timing such as in your Rega Planar3 example.The earlier Planar 3 possesses a good rhythmic quality but has a poor performance in timing, a marginal but satisfactory performance in pacing and a very poor performance in speed and pitch stability and accuracy. A component that displays good rhythmic qualities is not necessarily a good yardstick with which to measure or judge pace, timing or PRaT as a whole." http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.h...essage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=vinyl
 
Then you're measuring the wrong things.
Not so, sorry, but it is a fact.

How can we have more musicality than what is on the record? How can we have more detail than what is on the record? What components measure well but sound like crap?
gusten
First question....you can't but you can reproduce it in the a musical way, as it was intended to be heard.
Second question.....every component has a sound signature, some add more than needed, and this can be accumulative.
Third question........more than you probably imagine.

Edit:The system as a whole is an instrument to reproduce music, it needs to be tuned to do this well.
 
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The best attribute a turntable can have is to have no perceptible attributes at all. It should just get out of the way.

That's also my goal, I don't get to hear other folk's gear so I am on my own trying to decide what is natural and what is "Hi-Fi". So Far I think it's the reworked H-K BD that's doing the deed right.
 
How can we have more musicality than what is on the record? How can we have more detail than what is on the record? What components measure well but sound like crap?
gusten

Resonant modes in a player components and structure are the most likely cause of perceived differences, many players including highly regarded ones are veritable resonance festivals of euphonic musicality which could be measured with contact mics and fast accelerometers. Most of the fooling around I've done mod'ing my own stuff involved uninstrumented damping correction tho' I now have at least a stethoscope.
 
Resonant modes in a player components and structure are the most likely cause of perceived differences, many players including highly regarded ones are veritable resonance festivals of euphonic musicality which could be measured with contact mics and fast accelerometers. Most of the fooling around I've done mod'ing my own stuff involved uninstrumented damping correction tho' I now have at least a stethoscope.

Using an outboard decoupled second tonearm with the needle resting on different parts and areas can be used with good result for this.
gusten
 
It looks to me that a PRAT turntable is introducing a bit of vibrato. There are other names for this.
 
"The design parameters of the turntable fixes a turntables potential ability to preserve pace ,rhythm and timing functions. Most turntable designs completely neglect important performance parameters involved with maintaining locational and dynamic relationships between the sub components in the vinyl replay chain. . .

I took the liberty to snip the quote and I'm interested in reading more attached to it because as it stands its just psycho babble. Do you have a link to the full conversation?

Thanks
 
I took the liberty to snip the quote and I'm interested in reading more attached to it because as it stands its just psycho babble. Do you have a link to the full conversation?

Thanks

Take a significant chunk of the quote, copy it, paste it into a search engine.
 
Resonant modes in a player components and structure are the most likely cause of perceived differences, many players including highly regarded ones are veritable resonance festivals of euphonic musicality which could be measured with contact mics and fast accelerometers. Most of the fooling around I've done mod'ing my own stuff involved uninstrumented damping correction tho' I now have at least a stethoscope.

Several pounds of plasticine clay and Mortite will fix a multitude of those problems.
 
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