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Do I have "PRAT"??

Pio compared to the LT-30 how does the LT-20 match up? Would it be like a Yamaha PX-3 compared to a PX-2?

The PX-2 has been said to be better than the flagship PX-1, the 3 almost but not as good as the 2. The LT-20 is not the LT-30 but still pretty good from what I've gleaned secondhand on all of these. The LT-30 has a lot going for it, presently my fave integrated LT based on design and execution. Almost nothing that needs "fixing" outside of shortening the tonearm signal leads and damping the bottom cover.
 
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How about defining the term? Once that is done, then we can progress to sarcasm, name calling, and pontification. Indulging in those things before we are all on the same page as to what PRaT means is just stupid.

How about just accepting that you know it when you hear it, and that you haven't heard it at least in a context where you knew exactly what it was, to label it? That's what I'm doing, and its working for me.

I don't need to fully understand a term to think that others have the right to use it. I do understand that rhythm/timing/pace are the skeleton that music exists upon, and that some gear just seems to plod along, losing this structure, and with it, allowing the music to lose much of its communication. I feel that if jazz and classical were played more often around here, I'd have a much stronger appreciation for it, as so much of the appeal of those genres lies in playing off the beat, and off of other players (or the conductor's) interpretation of it. If that weren't maintained, I could see the whole thing being quite frustrating. Just as I'm annoyed when a speaker is completely incoherent and sounds like three drivers playing out of time with each other. That is my go-to "no PRat" example for me, trying to understand it. But that's just it- I'm trying to understand it instead of just accusing those who do of making it up to slight my approach.
 
How about just accepting that you know it when you hear it, and that you haven't heard it at least in a context where you knew exactly what it was, to label it? That's what I'm doing, and its working for me.

I don't need to fully understand a term to think that others have the right to use it. I do understand that rhythm/timing/pace are the skeleton that music exists upon, and that some gear just seems to plod along, losing this structure, and with it, allowing the music to lose much of its communication. I feel that if jazz and classical were played more often around here, I'd have a much stronger appreciation for it, as so much of the appeal of those genres lies in playing off the beat, and off of other players (or the conductor's) interpretation of it. If that weren't maintained, I could see the whole thing being quite frustrating. Just as I'm annoyed when a speaker is completely incoherent and sounds like three drivers playing out of time with each other. That is my go-to "no PRat" example for me, trying to understand it. But that's just it- I'm trying to understand it instead of just accusing those who do of making it up to slight my approach.
This is why I prefer time-and-phase aligned speakers or competent simple 2-way designs that accomplish it. What about my previous Q on the LT-30 vs the VPI re PRAT, ect?
 
Seems a bit like my audition of the Well Tempered Amadeus. I wasn't even looking for a turntable, I was just helping a friend hear what his options were, as he was new to the hobby. So we listened to this turntable and I was just amazed at how much I loved it. Indescribable, really- possibly because it did something that I hadn't really heard before. It just sounded like music should sound, and I thought "I love this turntable and I have no idea what about it is so much different than everything else I've heard".

FWIW, my Meitner CD/SACD player seems to be designed with PRaT in mind:

"Rather than address the digital signal as a series of sine waves—as is standard convention—the MDAT-equipped CDSA SE processes (and upsamples CD audio to DSD for conversion to analog) by dynamically adapting to the transient nature of the musical signal. In this way, the CDSA SE is utterly unique and singularly able to preserve the phase, frequency and dynamic integrity of the original signal. Once you’ve heard this level of improvement in terms of resolution, nuance and dynamic shading, there’s no going back."

And of course, somebody is going to call that audiophool marketing, without knowing who Ed Meitner is.

I'll call that audiophool marketing and I KNOW who Ed Meitner is.
 
Pio and rnorton thanks for the feedback re the LT-20, not hearing the LT-20 that would of been my gut feeling also, second fiddle and almost as good but not top banana.
 
This is why I prefer time-and-phase aligned speakers or competent simple 2-way designs that accomplish it. What about my previous Q on the LT-30 vs the VPI re PRAT, ect?

I think I'm the wrong target-market for being heavily influenced by PRaT, just given what I listen to. It seems to be a term that floats around more with the crowd that listens to a lot of jazz recordings. Half of the people I listen to can barely play their instruments so PRaT is probably lost from the moment they picked up their guitar. That said, the VPI is a rhythmic steam-train when I get down and listen to my soul/R&B records. It reminds me of my unrestored Lenco in that way. Just chugs through transients with a snap and keeps on going. The LT-30 is a more sterile sounding machine, but I don't mind that.
 
I wouldn't pass up an LT-20 if the price is right, you can always pass it on if you move up or onward.

The LT-20 and 30 live in the same world, they're not totally removed from one another sound-wise. I have both, and have kept both while getting rid of a bunch of other tables. My girlfriend has dibs on the LT-20 for when she gets more space. She has SL-1210s but seems to have been more impressed with the LT-20 than any table I've had besides the LT-30 an VPI.
 
I'm still amazed at the number of people who just refuse to sit down to listen to things and try to learn.

The AK Fest this weekend was a glorious opportunity. Room after room of different peoples approaches to what they thought sounded great. Some I agreed with. Some surprised me. Some shocked me. Some bored me. But each one was unique, and each one taught me something.

Oddly, I saw no one taking measurements all weekend.... :)
 
I think it may be time to call Hospice in to help this thread die with dignity (if it's not too late for that)
 
John VF;"That said, the VPI is a rhythmic steam-train when I get down and listen to my soul/R&B records. It reminds me of my unrestored Lenco in that way. Just chugs through transients with a snap and keeps on going. The LT-30 is a more sterile sounding machine, but I don't mind that. "
Pretty much on the money from my experiences here with similar. If I could only have one DD it'd be the big Mitz, if only one TT period it's be the mod'ed H-K T60.
 
I'm still amazed at the number of people who just refuse to sit down to listen to things and try to learn.

The AK Fest this weekend was a glorious opportunity. Room after room of different peoples approaches to what they thought sounded great. Some I agreed with. Some surprised me. Some shocked me. Some bored me. But each one was unique, and each one taught me something.

Oddly, I saw no one taking measurements all weekend.... :)

It's funny isn't it? IME when people actually meet face-to-face, rarely do such arguments take place. Usually there is gear present so it's pretty easy to demonstrate the quality being discussed. Also, there is often beer :D

Here, we only have fonts on a screen.
 
I'm still amazed at the number of people who just refuse to sit down to listen to things and try to learn.

The AK Fest this weekend was a glorious opportunity. Room after room of different peoples approaches to what they thought sounded great. Some I agreed with. Some surprised me. Some shocked me. Some bored me. But each one was unique, and each one taught me something.

Oddly, I saw no one taking measurements all weekend.... :)

I would have loved doing this and could have hand-delivered some goodies to Dave. I have a houseful of rescue dogs to care for and being somewhat autistic find socialization awkward as some you can tell from reading my postings.
 
I'm still amazed at the number of people who just refuse to sit down to listen to things and try to learn.

That is your assumption. You are assuming that a guy who likes the scientific approach to turntables doesn't care for listening tests, and that's not true. For example i do sit down and listen. Not only i do listen, but i am probably one of the most obsessive forumers regarding ear care and cleaning.

As for the AK Fest, sadly i live far away. Otherwise i would've been there too.
 
It's funny isn't it? IME when people actually meet face-to-face, rarely do such arguments take place. Usually there is gear present so it's pretty easy to demonstrate the quality being discussed. Also, there is often beer :D

Here, we only have fonts on a screen.

Its hard to make an argument for things all sounding the same when you're in a room full of things that sound different.
 
I'm still amazed at the number of people who just refuse to sit down to listen to things and try to learn.

The AK Fest this weekend was a glorious opportunity. Room after room of different peoples approaches to what they thought sounded great. Some I agreed with. Some surprised me. Some shocked me. Some bored me. But each one was unique, and each one taught me something.

Oddly, I saw no one taking measurements all weekend.... :)

Well, if no one measured it, it didn't happen.
 
Its hard to make an argument for things all sounding the same when you're in a room full of things that sound different.

I assume the systems that sounded different did not include the same speakers placed in the same location in the same room.
 
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