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Do I need a different preamp

S

Smokin amps

Active Member
My current system consists of a Pass Labs XA25 amp with a Pass Labs XP12 preamp. It is fed by a Technics SL1200 MK 2 turntable with a Ortofon Quintet Blue MC cartridge through a TubeBox 2 phono preamp. My speakers are Klipsch Cornwall 2 with Crites crossovers. I originally had a McIntosh MA 7000 amp which has a 6 frequency range tone stages. Going from the McIntosh amp to the Pass Labs equipment, I noticed a marked improvement in the music clarity like the music thru the McIntosh was veiled but now the music seems too bright and lacking the bass punch that I would like. My current speaker placement has beautiful sound stage as far as sensing the placement of the musicians. So now I'm working on experimenting with moving the speakers around to new spots in relation to the distance to walls etc. I haven't had a chance to experiment with room treatments yet.
I'm sure I have much more work to do in trying to improve the bass response before considering another brand preamp. I would like any other preamps to have a tape in/out feature for use with my Reel to Reel tape decks. Your thoughts at this point in my journey would be greatly appreciated.
 
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Smokin amps said:
My current system consists of a Pass Labs XA25 amp with a Pass Labs XP12 preamp. It is fed by a Technics SL1200 MK 2 turntable with a Ortofon Quintet Blue MC cartridge through a TubeBox 2 phono preamp. My speakers are Klipsch Cornwall 2 with Crites crossovers. I originally had a McIntosh MA 7000 amp which has a 6 frequency range tone stages. Going from the McIntosh amp to the Pass Labs equipment, I noticed a marked improvement in the music clarity like the music thru the McIntosh was veiled but now the music seems too bright and lacking the bass punch that I would like. My current speaker placement has beautiful sound stage as far as sensing the placement of the musicians. So now I'm working on experimenting with moving the speakers around to new spots in relation to the distance to walls etc. I haven't had a chance to experiment with room treatments yet.
I'm sure I have much more work to do in trying to improve the bass response before considering another brand preamp. I would like any other preamps to have a tape in/out feature for use with my Reel to Reel tape decks. Your thoughts at this point in my journey would be greatly appreciated.
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A new preamp isn't likely to have much affect on the bass response of your system ..
I'd suggest looking in to a powered subwoofer instead ..
 
I have learned that there certainly is a "synergy" between components and their effects on the resulting sound stage. I like your thoughts on moving the speakers around to improve the bass. It may have been there before, but the new clairity from the new(er) preamp has changed things. Corners are a bass enhancer, as is the front wall and floor.. The corner is where many sub manufacturers suggest as a starting point for placement, too tight into the corner can muddy up the mess, but is where I would start. Toe in can also play a role. Also, sine waves are never symmetrical so flipping around the speaker terminals on both speakers may result in a different response (on occasion).

Good luck!
 
I am not a big fan of the concept of "synergy", at least at the level that some others seem to proclaim. With that said, the idea is not completely untrue either. There are some pairings that make fundamental sense, and some that are more like oil and water. Klipsch and Mac is one, or Klipsch and a number of tube based gear such as VTL, VAC, Quicksilver, and so on. The combination of Klipsch and Pass would be one I would predict as problematic. Same with Klipsch and Krell.

Personally I think you have a combination that is going to be difficult to get a nice blend from.
 
Mister Pig said:
I am not a big fan of the concept of "synergy", at least at the level that some others seem to proclaim. With that said, the idea is not completely untrue either. There are some pairings that make fundamental sense, and some that are more like oil and water. Klipsch and Mac is one, or Klipsch and a number of tube based gear such as VTL, VAC, Quicksilver, and so on. The combination of Klipsch and Pass would be one I would predict as problematic. Same with Klipsch and Krell.

Personally I think you have a combination that is going to be difficult to get a nice blend from.
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Does Klipsch sound good with anything other than low watt tube amps? I let a friend use a Manley Stingray I had with his Klipsch speakers and it was perfect for him. I can’t think of any mainstream speaker that seems to be more particular about what type of power you’re using more so than Klipsch
 
Danathepill said:
Does Klipsch sound good with anything other than low watt tube amps? I let a friend use a Manley Stingray I had with his Klipsch speakers and it was perfect for him. I can’t think of any mainstream speaker that seems to be more particular about what type of power you’re using more so than Klipsch
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Klipsch is known to be a good pairing for tube amps, that certainly is true. Now in the 2000s there were major tube manufacturers who were building SS amps that had "tube like" qualities. An example would be Conrad Johnson Motif series. Another option might be hybrid amplifiers that used small signal tubes on the front end and SS output devices. Probably the First Watt series of amps would work well with Klipsch also. Just a few thoughts off the top of my head before my work day starts.
 
Smokin amps said:
Going from the McIntosh amp to the Pass Labs equipment, I noticed a marked improvement in the music clarity like the music thru the McIntosh was veiled but now the music seems too bright and lacking the bass punch that I would like.
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In terms of bass punch, I find that power rules. You went from 250 watts to 25.
 
Thanks to everyone who has responded with useful input. My current plan is to continue with experiments with speaker placement and room treatments for now. My preamp to amp interconnects are Blue Jeans. Any thoughts on using different cables ? Don't want start throwing $ at cables but I might be able to barrow some to test.
 
My entire system is wired with Blue Jeans LC-1 cables. Eliminates a variable, and one less thing to think about. If there's anything wrong with the sound, I'm not aware of it.
 
Smokin amps said:
Thanks to everyone who has responded with useful input. My current plan is to continue with experiments with speaker placement and room treatments for now. My preamp to amp interconnects are Blue Jeans. Any thoughts on using different cables ? Don't want start throwing $ at cables but I might be able to barrow some to test.
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Yes ..cables make a big difference .. especially between amp and preamp ..
Experiment and try different cables ..
Use Amazon so that you can try them and compare them, and return the rejects ..
There are some excellent cables available via Amazon ..

My personal favorites are the World's Best cables for $20-$40 interconnects .. big variety of quality cable and connector combinations and very well made ..
A lot of people like the Blue Jeans interconnect .. I've listened to them and I'm not a fan .. sent them back.
 
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Having the correct bass balance will always cover up clarity. Its just the way we hear. Having to much bass will just muddy the sound further. You have to give up bass below 160 HZ or so to gain the crystal clear clarity . I learned this a long time go. Thats why I voice speakers by either moving them around or by doing that first and then use equalization. Because your Mac had autoformers the lower damping factor allows a greater chance of colorization in the lower frequencies if your speakers woofers are not well damped by the suspension, the enclosure or the tuning if ported which is definitely the case with your Cornwalls. Like others have said its synergy. That why I use MAC amps that are direct coupled SS in design to get better control of the lower range frequencies produced by the woofers if needed or not. Also Woofers should not be asked to cover much above Middle C. Speakers with Crossover above 300 HZ or so between woofer and midrange are particularly susceptible to lack of clarity if the right amp isn't chosen. Your Cornwalls tend be on the very bright side with the newer tweeters from the original MK I version. I love the sound of the New Mark IV but its design if you want clarity you will need the amps you have. But you might consider a C-50 or C-52 as a pre-amp. With the 8 graphic controls to get the optimum performance for Cornwalls. . With the capability of your Cornwalls its going to take big money to buy a pair of subs to keep up with your speakers. Remember a sub will have to move at 2 to 4 times as much air as each of your Cornwall woofers that are ported with 101 db efficiency. A 10 or 12 inch sub isn't going to do the job. Then you have another issue your speakers have high harmonic distortion in the bass and because they are ported have high phase distortion. I will admit the Cornwall is my favorite Klipsch speaker, but I would never own a pair just for the reasons you are learning about. How about a pair of Klipsch Jubilees. being bi- amped and voiced you would have extended bass, no time alignment errors between drivers and they are very efficient. All you would need is another matching power amp. Klipsch is using a very unique bass woofer design with the Jubilee which cancels out the issues with most ported and horn loaded woofers. You would have the clarity and the bass you desire. Its only money. I know I am being bad today.
 
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Thanks Akustic for suggesting checking out various cables from World's Best via Amazon which allows return.
I'll get going with that idea. Also thanks Twiiii for providing me with a better understanding of my Klipsch Cornwalls and their limitations. I'll post again as my experimentation continues including speaker placement and room treatment.
 
Agreed with @E-Stat re power delivery. Also, when you find yourself wondering whether a 'cable upgrade' will bring that 'je ne sais quoi', maybe go for a walk or donate a few bucks to charity.
 
I don't think experimenting with cables as EQ's will yield dramatic results. I made interconnects with Mogami cable for neutrality. My Crites B type similar to Cornwalls are more sensitive to placement. Getting the toe in right yields noticeable results. Room treatments and corner placement also critical. I have two amps I rotate in my system. First a restored Dynaco ST-70. Mids and highs are lush with good strong bass response. My SS amp is a restored Hafler DH-220 with Musical Concepts driver boards. With that amp the mids and highs are very close to the tube amp due to the MOSFET outputs, a very sweet sound. The bass response is tighter and has a bit more defined impact. Neither of these amps operate out of class A due to the 100db sensitivity of the speakers. A Cornwall 15" woofer with a ported enclosure isn't going to deliver perfectly tight and well defined bass but the right amp with good damping factor will help control that driver the best it can be. I would optimize my system bi-amping with tubes on top and the SS driving the woofers. I don't have an electronic crossover to effectively accomplish this but both amps do such a good job on their own I haven't bothered going that route.
Dial in your speaker placement, in the corners toed in and close to the front wall. Your Pass amp isn't ideal for these speakers. You also don't need flea watt tube power, just the right power. If solid state, consider a MOSFET based amp which will provide smooth high frequency response with your horns and tight bass. A restored Hafler 220 is a great amp that can be had with little investment. B&K, Adcom both also fet designs.
 
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