Does a 35 Watts difference between Receivers make a REAL Difference?

[GlobalWarming]

I have been pondering on this question for a while now......

As you can see I have two Yamaha Receivers:

The CR-1000 is rated at 70 Watts at 8 Ohms

The CR-2020 is rated at 105 Watts at 8 Ohms

How much of a difference can 35 more Watts make?

 

[Jcricket]

Just my humble observation. 70-105 - some difference - not huge but some.

20-55 wats. Pretty dang significant.
I think this pairs pretty well wit hthe SPL +3 correlation. Double the power gives you +3 db. So the higher you go, the more you need to make a huge difference.

My opinions of course.
Mark

 

[KeninDC]

Depends on the speakers. If you are driving power hungry speakers (like B&Ws), they will "open up" with the extra 35 wpc.

Ken

 

[lumpy]

There is very little difference between 70 and 100 WPC.

 

[bricktop]

+1.8 dB

 

[Brian]

I think it depends on several factors. I've had instances where it would be a huge difference and other times you'd never appreciate the difference. It really depends on the average listeing level and the dynamic headroom needed before audible clippping.

A bigger issue may be the noise and distortion of the first 1/2 watt to 1 watt. SS units actually have higher levels at low power levels that is reduced as power goes up. What you want is an amp that on average volumes is in the range where the noise and distortion is at the low point on the graph but, at the same time has sufficient headroom for the dynamics desired or the speaker is capable of.

 

[Cogsinister]

I would rather have a 70wpc amp with a good current handling capability than a 105 wpc with less headroom......its nice to be able to drive those "difficult" loads without your amp breaking a sweat.......

 

[mhardy6647]

+1.8 dB

Yup. "As is", the difference is negligible. That does not mean that one or the other won't work better/sound better with any given pair of speakers.

So-called "RMS" (continuous, sine wave) power really isn't the most valuable measurement of amplifier performance with real-world signals (music) into real-world loads (dynamic loudspeakers in a reverberant environment -- i.e., a real room).


Lots of measureable things come into play (phase linearity, harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, power supply "stiffness", "headroom", current and voltage capacity, transient response, etc.) but at the end of the day the sound quality and performance of an amplifier is (IMNSHO) best determined empirically by the end user using the fantastically well-designed and subtle test instruments attached to the sides of his/her head.

 

[fiddlefye]

Just my humble observation. 70-105 - some difference - not huge but some.

20-55 wats. Pretty dang significant.
I think this pairs pretty well wit hthe SPL +3 correlation. Double the power gives you +3 db. So the higher you go, the more you need to make a huge difference.

My opinions of course.
Mark

Agreed, 100%. Especially with SS amps I try to stay up toward 100w/ch, minimum 60 for most purposes. That just seems to work best for me. Tube gear is a different matter, not nearly so many w/ch seems to be required to cover the possibilities and dynamics.

 

[archie2]

I would rather have a 70wpc amp with a good current handling capability than a 105 wpc with less headroom......its nice to be able to drive those "difficult" loads without your amp breaking a sweat.......

Yup, peak power makes a difference.

 

[adam-ads]

I guess a better question would be "is there a difference between the 70 watts of a CR-1000 and the 105 of a 2020?" Yeah, there is. The smaller one will run out of steam sooner. Maybe that just means that it can't really hit that one big bass note with the knob at 7.

At lower listening levels, I think you will still hear the difference if you listen carefully.

At even lower levels, it's quite possible that the smaller amp is better.

 

[luvvinvinyl]

I've had both the 1020 and 2020 in my system, and the difference is very small, though, I confess, I never explored the upper reaches of the volume knob on either. It just got too damn loud with even the 1020, using either a pair of Epicure M100s or Mirage 460s, long before the 1020 started to strain. I found them both to be fine units, and my favourite brand of receiver, especially when merrylander has worked his magic on it.

 

[fiddlefye]

I've had both the 1020 and 2020 in my system, and the difference is very small, though, I confess, I never explored the upper reaches of the volume knob on either. It just got too damn loud with even the 1020, using either a pair of Epicure M100s or Mirage 460s, long before the 1020 started to strain. I found them both to be fine units, and my favourite brand of receiver, especially when merrylander has worked his magic on it.

I haven't (yet) had the pleasure of a Yamaha receiver in my stable, but I have a CA-1010 integrated that has never had any problem powering any speaker I've put with it to levels far beyond what my ears can take and I've never noticed it to strain in the least. It's in my shop system (not a downgrade, I spend long hours there) at the moment running some Klipsche KG4's and anything above about 9 o'clock is beyond what I can handle. If I'm doing BBQ in the yard I crank it to 10 o'clock or so and the neighbourhood gets to enjoy my taste in tunes Yep, those Yammies can push most anything IMO.

 

[luvvinvinyl]

I've had no experience with Infinity speakers, so I don't know how difficult a load they present. I've never been able to get a 1020 to break a sweat, and the 2020 just ambled along, even when flooding the back yard with sound.

If you have them both, (I no longer have either of mine) maybe you could run a shootout, and report back to us.

 

[grillebilly]

I am like most of you, love the Yamaha CR series. The 1020 at half volume is almost uncomfortable in my house. The meters read under 20 watts. It is unlikely I would listen to it that loud for more than an hour.
I just picked up a second 1020 last weekend and gave it a good workout when the family was out. It was driving a pair of Mission Argonauts, which are 4 ohm. I was surprised how warm it got after an hour or so. Hotter than I have ever noticed any of the other receivers, even the other 1020 with 8 ohm speakers.
I have noticed many of that model have the top grill discolored in spots- is that due to them running hot?

 

[megawatt]

yup... it all depends on how loud you listen to it. Only in the most demanding cases will those 30 watts above 70 matter. for most of us... the quality of sound will lay in other design points.

Quality does not equate to wattage. There are some very fine sounding units that are well below 50wpc. Unless you are throwing some really ruckus parties, or have some reeeealy difficult speaker loads (or maybe just half deaf) the extra watts up there won’t be a factor.

 

[Logos]

My receivers go from 18 watts to 45 watts and once I get past 25 watts I have more volume than I can use.

I have a normal house, though, at about 2500 square feet. I suppose in a huge mansion you could use more power.

Idunno......probably never will since I won't buy a mansion even if I get to the point that I can afford one.

I suspect the race for power is more a function of macho and insecurity gone wild than anything else.

Being able to say, "mine is bigger than yours," seems to be a pervasive male need.



Not to say I wouldn't grab a big receiver if I found it for a great price at a garage sale........but I know I don't need the power.

 

[SaSi]

Have you ever seen one of the power amps that sport large VU meters? I've seen a few by Rotel and Technics and the first thing that puzzled me was the VU meter scale. Scaled in W(RMS) and dB, the Rotel VU meters topped at 1000W (!) and that was the +6dB mark. To the left there was a 500W mark (+3dB) and a 250W mark on the 0dB. And to the left there was about 90% of the VU meter scale in terms of "real estate". The "full power" range with 50, 120 and 250W marks was crammed along with the "overdrive" marks. There was a longer "path" in the scale from 0.1W to 1W than from 120W to 250W.

Very crude way of putting this (unless you see that yourself) but if you listen to the music played loud, the VU meters really move in the -30 ~ -10dB range most of the times with very short peaks above that.

I have an integrated amp specified at 2x75WRMS. I also tried a Technics 9060 power amp delivering 2x70WRMS. Tried them both in the same room, with the same loudspeakers and the same source. The power amp (9060) was able to deliver louder peaks without the "loudness" factor that clipping introduces. Totally different sound, much better than the integrated that probably uses a single chip for the power stage.

Next example: I also have a vintage Luxman L-2 integrated. It's rated at a very modest 2x33WRMS. I have that thing bought new when I was into modding and the first thing that I did to the thing was add 4x10,000uF caps to the power supply. It really changed the sound of the amp to the point it sounded disgusting without the extra caps. (The original capacitance in the power supply was 2x3,300uF).

As I see it, power output specs as a plain number has no correlation with what to expect from the amplifier. The power supply, the design of the power amp (discrete transistors vs chip or 4 power transistors vs 2) and several other factors come into play to the point that I don't know if there are any number of adequate specifications (published or not) that could predict the "qualities" of any power stage with any accuracy.

 

[superdog]

I would think that 30 wpc is not that much but my JBLs sound better with more wpc and that does not necessarily mean playing them louder.

 

[whoaru99]

As I see it, power output specs as a plain number has no correlation with what to expect from the amplifier.

If you mean how it will sound, I agree on a theoretical level, but I'm one of those guys that doesn't find much difference in sound of most amps (insert all sort of conditions here).

However, if you mean in terms of output/power capabilities it certainly does, IMO, give a very good indictation especially if one has the 8, 4, and 2 ohm numbers (or lower, even).