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Does recapping make an audible difference? The shoot out & you're invited

gyrene said:
Thierry thank you so much for posting the graphs.
Very enlightining to see the difference.
I never doubted that capactiors wear out especially after 35 years!!!
But seeing it is very educational
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Thanks,

I think that apart from ageing leading to performance loss, capacitors are the electronic parts that have seen the biggest performance improvement during the past 15 years. Reliability, size reduction along with ESR (equivalent series resistance), leakage current, ripple current, all of these essential parameters have seen tremendous improvements, at least for respectable manufacturers like Vishay (Philips / BC Components, same group), Panasonic, Elna, Rifa, Nichicon etc..

First of all you don't need to replace ALL of the capacitors. You must first study the device schematics to determine which capacitors will bring a real improvement when replaced. Some are obvious, some are less obvious : by instance, a decoupling capacitor located in an area of the circuit may influence a remote part of it because of a feedback loop. Thus I would say that recapping shall be done with discernment. Of course if you have time (and money) you can replace all of the electrolytics and enjoy a nice result but personally I prefer to think first and act accordingly.

generally I don't touch any other capacitor other than electrolytic and tantalum ones. I may also use bypass film capacitors in selected areas but then whe are not speaking about restoration anymore, rather about modifications.

Hope it helps

Thierry
 
Thierry said:
Not only you can hear a difference but you can also measure it :

http://www.dcx2496.fr/2220BL/Comparaison Marantz 2220BL.htm

I measured those two Marantz 2220BL the same day, using the same procedure.

One was completely restored to new condition with quality parts (capacitors, power supply rectifiers) and the other one stayed in original condition. Have a look athe results, they speak for themselves.

P1030192.jpg
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Generally speaking, I am against the wholesale replacement of caps (Electrolytic). But, I can also say I appreciate this kind of depth and making the measurements. I am not sure if the cap/no cap graphs are from the same unit, but these noise floor issues due to lost filtering performance is one of those things that might go un-noticed after repairing another part of the set.

Whether the difference in S/N, TIM, IMD, etc is enough for somebody to pick up in a listening test??? .... that's another thread.

Kudos for making the measurements. :thmbsp:
 
Measurements were made on two strictly identical units, one restored and the other one in original condition.

Did the same thing on a Marantz 1040 :

http://www.dcx2496.fr/marantz1040.php

You can compare reports BEFORE/AFTER :


However you have to know that this project was not only a simple restoration but included some deeper modifications (mainly about the power supply). In fact I always measure a device before I work on it and measure it again once the project is completed. That helps me a lot to decide if specific attention is needed on some areas or not for future projetcs.

Here's another example on an analog 2 ways active crossover : http://www.dcx2496.fr/CX2300m.php

I never came accross a measurable improvement that wasn't detectable when listening carefully.
 
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Hyperion said:
Whether you and others will be able to detect an audible difference between those 2 SX-850's is one thing - who knows ?

However, in general I think re-capping makes a huge audible difference - I speak here as a veteran of 4 full re-caps :D - 5 if you include my oscilloscope - which now 'sounds' just peachy :D :smoke:

My experience suggests that - If you cannot hear a difference, you have
a). used poor replacements,
b). you are hearing challenged,
c). the old caps were not that bad in the first place.

And the audible difference may not so much be the caps themselves - but being able to reliably set the equipment to manufacturers specs in the case of Bias and offset for example.

(Retreats to underground bunker protected by 20' of reinforced concrete, flame suit on, beer in hand :beerchug: :para: :D )

Sadly, I won't be able to make it to the shoot-out to be shot down.
:D
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Glad to see that you included c). because after recapping the audio path of my CR-2040 I could not really hear any difference. However all the old caps tested good on my ESR meter.
 
I've done full re-caps on several receivers, among them the Marantz 2250 in my livingroom. I fell in love with this receiver the first time I hooked it up to my test speakers on my bench. If there was ever a receiver I would re-cap just because I wanted it to live forever, this was it. I went the full monty, but honestly I could hear NO DIFFERENCE before vs. after. My bench speakers are NHT Super Zeroes which are pretty gosh-darn revealing in this near-field listening application. Just for fun I tested all the caps I had replaced and, wouldn't you know it, they all tested fine on my ESR meter. Given that the spec on most electros is +/-20% value, I highly doubt any of them would have drifted that far, in fact I find that it's extremely rare for even very old caps to change value appreciably and stay low ESR. The only location where I've really been able to tell a difference in any receiver is with coupling caps and, to a lesser extent, power supply caps if they're real old to start with.

My take on re-caps is to do it selectively... sure go ahead and do the signal path caps, if there are any. But I tend to test the caps rather than go wholesale replacement. If they're low-ESR, in a non-signal path location, and they don't have a hard high-ripple life, they generally stay.

Just my 2 cents.
 
First off, while I am not a professional audio technician, I have extensive experience over the decades and have personally recapped to the order of 20 pieces of audio gear.

My main goal is to determine if there is an audible difference between the stock and recapped unit. Audible being the important factor. Even if one could measure a difference that looks significant on paper if a group of audio enthusiasts (notice I didn't say "audiophiles") can't tell the difference then the justification becomes one of reliability and not superior sound.

I think there is a general consensus that recapping is a good thing in regards to assuring the long term reliability of older equipment - providing you don't screw something up in the process of course.

The other thing that is important in the A/B test is that one's hearing memory is not very good. Hopefully the live comparison will be a more reliable / objective methodology.

Incidentally, for set up I will be feeding each with a sine wave from a signal generator and verifying the SPL with my db meter (on a tripod to insure a constant measurement) to insure that the volumes are the same. This is important since the louder one will generally sound superior (given fairly equal signal "quality").

And as always, YMMV!
 
w1jim said:
I think it's a whole different world - comparing those waxy caps from the 40's with the caps from the 70's. I want to see if there's a difference with modern caps.
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Not really--my Sony TA-F6B (1977) produced terribly, unlistenebly poor music (well, mostly static) before I recapped mine. I'd say it's a measurable difference :)
 
Sometimes it do and sometimes it don't...

Last year member Sir Byrd recapped two pieces of mine, a Sansui AU-9900 and a Marantz 2270. The Marantz sounds much better all around, especially the tuner section. The Sansui has a more resonant bass but otherwise sounds mostly unchanged (to me).
 
Arkay said:
Be honest now... you've already done a little un-official comparison and know which one you believe sounds better, right? :D


Whether a recap will make a sonic difference depends overwhelmingly on what condition the old caps are in, to begin with; that is, how much deterioration-from-new has occurred...
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Well that's completely relative to the circuit too, and is common sense. Previously nobody said it, because everyone knew it.
 
Wholesale recapping of vintage receivers is a lot of work. The few that I've completely recapped did not produce an audible difference. However the caps were bulging and over 30 years old, so I was looking to preserve rather than restore something that was lost. I have heard a difference doing audio path caps in some high end amps.

This comparo will be interesting.:yes:
 
Soundcraftsmn said:
This should be good. My own experience is that it does make a difference, but most of my recapped gear was buggered up to start.
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I think a good re-cap (with upgraded main caps) makes a huge difference in sound.

I have all of my vintage gear gone though and getting the power-supply, amp boards and especially the pre-amp board (receivers and integrated)
makes a huge difference in soundstage, bottom end and over-all presentation of music.

But transistor issues can be (and are sometimes more)
important than caps as well.

Maybe I'm weird but there has been more than one occasion
when I have heard weak main caps, sloppy power-supply issues
or odd transistor/sotter issues and been proven correct
by measurements on the offending suspects by my tech.:music:

Just my 2 cents.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Accuphase.....P-300 amp / Sony TA2000 pre-amp
Classé..........Cap-151
HKardon........HK730 / 930
Holfi………..…..Integra 5.1 amp / Xara CD transport
Kenwood.......KA-907, KA-801 / KT-615
Luxman........R-1120
Marantz........2230, 2240B, 2250, 2270, 2285B, 2325, 4240, 4270, 4300, 4400
Nikko............Alpha II amp / Beta II pre-amp (Silver)
Onkyo...........M-508 Amp / Perreaux SX1 pre-amp
Parasound......HCA 2200II AMP / Sir Byrd passive pre-amp
Pioneer..........SA-9500II / TX 9500II, SX1250, SX1010, SX980, SX950, 9930
Rotel.............RB-991AMP / Acurus L10 pre-amp
Sansui...........9090 / 990DB / AU717
Sony.............TA-3200 amp / 2000F pre-amp (x2), STR-6065, 7065, STR-V7
Yamaha........CR-1020 / 2020 / 3020

DAC's............Music Hall 25.2,,Music Hall 25.3, PS Audio DLIII, Xindak 5,
....................Fubar IV, Firestone Audio TubeHead pre-amp

Speakers........Pioneer HPM-1500's, HPM-900's, Klipsch Forte II's,
………………..KG-2's, Infinity RS1000, JBL 4412A / S-38's, Ohm Model L,
....................Norman Labs Model 8's, "New" Large Advents & KEF 103.2's
 
With just anecdotal evidence, I can say that recapping makes a huge difference. The sound after recapping is, to my ears, invariably better after a recap, especially in crucial places like speaker crossovers.

However, even ignoring sonic benefits, IMO all vintage electrolytics should be replaced solely for safety reasons, as previously stated. :yes:
 
I just replaced the huge main caps and PA board in my Pioneer SX-1010. It sounds like a 300 watt receiver now and dosent clip under heavy loads. The sound is so much clear.
 
In my limited experience, the expensive re-capping of a Sansui G9000DB most definitely resulted in wholesale improvement: night versus day.

Of course, things required power supply rebuild because the unit was already in oscillation...
 
Will you be publishing charts and graphs of the test results? Maybe one axis could show number of alcoholic beverages consumed and the other the ability to discern a difference in the two receivers.:lurk:
 
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