Does too much tracking force really damage records?

[twiiii]

It has been my observation over the past few years since when I started working at an AM RADIO STATION from 63 to 77 that used mostly Lp's and 45's records that keeping those records clean was more important. When you are a top 20 CW station some of the records got played quite a few times a day. Unless they were dropped and scratched or other wise mishandled. Cleaning before and after each play before being inserted into their record sleeves so the records didn't wear out. The TT's with Grey, QRK, RCA and other damped tone arms would be tracking as high as 7 grams with a spherical stylus. When we switched to Stanton 500 series the pressures were dropped to 5 Grams and some of the arms had to be reworked or changed. DJ's loved the damped arms because they didn't fly away from your hands. So newer arms got criticized quite a bit. Every now and then you would see a dime or penny added to the tone arm to add 2 or 3 grams to the tracking weight. RAdio stations depended on demo records to keep their over head down too. So damaging or mistreating records almost guaranteed you would loose your job. The biggest sin was not keeping the flow of scheduled announcements, adds, and public service announcements performed on time and then logging them correctly. Being a DJ was not an easy job I learned quickly.

 

[lini]

(...) Roy Gandy once wrote, "If you alter the playing weight of a normal cartridge by 0.1 of a gram the stylus VTA will alter by around 1.5°. I seem to recall past threads calling that a gross exaggeration, (...)

That would depend on the particular cartridge/needle. But one could always make a simplified calculation...

E.g., let's assume a moderately compliant cartridge with a static compliance of 20 µm/mN and an effective cantilever length of 5 mm, that would have a VTA of 20° at its manufaturer-suggested tracking force. So we could calculate sin(20) * 5 mm = ca. 1.7101 mm for the initial vertical component. 0.1 g more would be pretty much equivalent to 1 mN, so now we subtract 20 µm from that vertical component, thus arriving at ca. 1.6901 - and the corresponding VTA for that would be arcsin(1.6901 mm / 5 mm) = ca. 19.756°. So the difference would be a tad over 0.24°.

More extreme example: Same as above, but quite a good bit more highly compliant with 40 µm/mN and also with a shorter effective cantilever length of just 3 mm. New difference = ca. 0.81°.

So, yes, Gandy's estimated VTA alteration would appear exaggerated.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[Zygmo]

How can it NOT?

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Hi, Yep skating is more damaging to LP's than the extra gram, Some manufacturers did not provide A/S, my arms did not need it as they were 12.5'' long. VPI at 1st never supplies their are with A/S & advised customers to do what you have done.

If you really want to avoid the pitfalls of needing A/S, the look at changing your arm over to an Under hang arm, no A/S required with U/Hang & better S/Q as well

Cheers

Underhung arms are nonsense for audiophile use. Limit them to scratch/hip hop gymnastics. Incorrect geometry. And very accelerated record wear, and high tracking error.

 

[jrtrent]

Underhung arms are nonsense for audiophile use. Limit them to scratch/hip hop gymnastics. Incorrect geometry.

Nonsense for audiophiles? Well, maybe. Limited to scratch/hip hop gymnastics? I would add that the underhung arm also has application in audio restoration. I bought a turntable with underhung arm specifically for its ability to track far-less-than-pristine 78's. An audio restoration article mentioned that advantage and the Stanton STR8-80 in particular, and mine did indeed track problematic 78's and lp's much better than the used Dual 1218 I had been using previously.

And very accelerated record wear, and high tracking error.

I used my Stanton STR8-80 with a Stanton 500 AL Mkll cartridge tracking at 3.25 grams to do a casual record wear test. One side of a brand new album was played on it every morning for 100 consecutive days, and at the end, the side played 100 times sounded just as good as the unplayed side, on both the Stanton and on my Linn LP12/Ittok rig. I found the Stanton to be a very pleasant-sounding turntable, not as good as my Linn, of course, but I heard no indication that the high tracking angle error of its underhung arm was robbing me of musical pleasure.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Nonsense for audiophiles? Well, maybe. Limited to scratch/hip hop gymnastics? I would add that the underhung arm also has application in audio restoration. I bought a turntable with underhung arm specifically for its ability to track far-less-than-pristine 78's. An audio restoration article mentioned that advantage and the Stanton STR8-80 in particular, and mine did indeed track problematic 78's and lp's much better than the used Dual 1218 I had been using previously.

I used my Stanton STR8-80 with a Stanton 500 AL Mkll cartridge tracking at 3.25 grams to do a casual record wear test. One side of a brand new album was played on it every morning for 100 consecutive days, and at the end, the side played 100 times sounded just as good as the unplayed side, on both the Stanton and on my Linn LP12/Ittok rig. I found the Stanton to be a very pleasant-sounding turntable, not as good as my Linn, of course, but I heard no indication that the high tracking angle error of its underhung arm was robbing me of musical pleasure.

For 78 RPM which you need to get one play out of for a transfer, makes sense. Or audio restoration in extreme cases, I can agree with that.

 

[Hazelberry]

Nonsense for audiophiles? Well, maybe. Limited to scratch/hip hop gymnastics? I would add that the underhung arm also has application in audio restoration. I bought a turntable with underhung arm specifically for its ability to track far-less-than-pristine 78's. An audio restoration article mentioned that advantage and the Stanton STR8-80 in particular, and mine did indeed track problematic 78's and lp's much better than the used Dual 1218 I had been using previously.

I used my Stanton STR8-80 with a Stanton 500 AL Mkll cartridge tracking at 3.25 grams to do a casual record wear test. One side of a brand new album was played on it every morning for 100 consecutive days, and at the end, the side played 100 times sounded just as good as the unplayed side, on both the Stanton and on my Linn LP12/Ittok rig. I found the Stanton to be a very pleasant-sounding turntable, not as good as my Linn, of course, but I heard no indication that the high tracking angle error of its underhung arm was robbing me of musical pleasure.

Having not been keen to run an elliptical at over 2g, I'm heartened by your post. Also, it's good to read your experience of using an underhung arm. I'd like to think Yamaha has a good reason to include one on their current top TT.

 

[Sleiven]

Maybe OP should consider a turntable with proper controls if vinyl is going to be a hobby..more fun

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Having not been keen to run an elliptical at over 2g, I'm heartened by your post. Also, it's good to read your experience of using an underhung arm. I'd like to think Yamaha has a good reason to include one on their current top TT.

Most Yamaha turntables have left me less than impressed. The GT-2000 the one exception. But I also prefer no underhung nor tracking any elliptical over 2 grams.