Does too much tracking force really damage records?

[TunSalat]

Hi
I have a new turntable that doesn't have antiskate setting option (the antiskate is pre-set for the included Audio-Technica AT3600L stylus/cartridge)
I replaced the default AT3600L with a Audio-Technica AT-VM95SH

The Audio-Technica AT-VM95SH vertical tracking force is rated at 1.8 - 2.2 grams
To prevent skating outwards it seems I have to set it to about 3 grams
Is this too much?
I heard that "damage to the records" is a semi-debunked myth, but not sure
What do you think?

 

[Old Ears too]

I would be able to live with an extra gram of weight if it meant I wouldn't be risking a needle skating across my records.

YMMV.

 

[TunSalat]

I would be able to live with an extra gram of weight if it meant I wouldn't be risking a needle skating across my records.

YMMV.

Yeah that's my intuitive thought too. Just checking

I may be setting the baseline (zero) weight wrongly though..
When finding and setting the 0 should the tonearm float freely a lot above the holder or just slightly above but still "on it"?

 

[bkatbamna]

Which turntable do you have? Sounds like anti-skating is set too high if the arm is being pulled away from center.

 

[Old Ears too]

I haven't fiddled with a tone arm in over a decade so I'll defer to others more in tune with doing that.

 

[TunSalat]

It's an Argon Audio TT Mk2 turntable
I guess it's a rebranded Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO
It doesn't have antiskate setting and was calibrated for the AT3600L that was on from the shop
The AT-VM95SH should be about same weight tho, I think

 

[tom3]

Have you rebalanced the arm back to zero with the new cart, then add" Three grams with a conical stylus is nothing to worry about, with an elliptical you might get some wear over a thousand plays maybe. That's not a lot of weight. My old Elac with the Elac cart does track fine at 3/4 gram on albums.

 

[tabarddn51]

Hi, Yep skating is more damaging to LP's than the extra gram, Some manufacturers did not provide A/S, my arms did not need it as they were 12.5'' long. VPI at 1st never supplies their are with A/S & advised customers to do what you have done.

If you really want to avoid the pitfalls of needing A/S, the look at changing your arm over to an Under hang arm, no A/S required with U/Hang & better S/Q as well

Cheers

 

[borchee]

What do you think?

You're scratching a diamond along vinyl. The diamond, hardest material known to man, wears out sooner or later. What do you think happens to vinyl?!

Set VTF as per manufacturer, keep the stylus and records clean and just play the darn things - they are ment to be.

 

[TunSalat]

You're scratching a diamond along vinyl. The diamond, hardest material known to man, wears out sooner or later. What do you think happens to vinyl?!

Set VTF as per manufacturer, keep the stylus and records clean and just play the darn things - they are ment to be.

That same diamond (hardest material known to man) is purposely used to slide over grooves in soft plastic to reproduce sound without problems
The question is, is 1 more gram of weight damaging or not

 

[borchee]

...without problems

Why this thread, then?

The question is, is 1 more gram of weight damaging or not

Of course it is; as soon as the diamond hits the vinyl with force above zero, it'll damage it...just not in the order of magnitude folks are talking about.
Set VTF in the range Audio-Technica tells you. Setting up a turntable, especially a pivoted/radial one, is nothing but a compromise - you win some, you loose some.

 

[jrtrent]

It's an Argon Audio TT Mk2 turntable
I guess it's a rebranded Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO

Not a rebranded Debut Carbon EVO since that turntable uses an adjustable string and weight antiskate system.

It doesn't have antiskate setting and was calibrated for the AT3600L that was on from the shop
The AT-VM95SH should be about same weight tho, I think

The AT3600L is designed to track at 3.5±0.5 grams, and your manual says, "The recommended downforce for the factory-fitted cartridge is 3.0g or higher," so your turntable's factory-set antiskate is presumably adjusted with that tracking force in mind. This might account for this message in your owner's manual, "NOTE: While it is possible to replace the cartridge, it is not recommended. The turntable comes configured with a standard cartridge, and using other cartridges might result in improper functionality."

However, your VM95SH can accept heavier-tracking styli, such as the ATN-XP3, a conical stylus designed to track at 2.0-4.0 g (3.0 g standard). I've used one in a VM95 body tracking at 3.5 grams and been very happy with the sound. Then again, I also love the AT3600L, which I also tracked at 3.5 grams.

I may be setting the baseline (zero) weight wrongly though..
When finding and setting the 0 should the tonearm float freely a lot above the holder or just slightly above but still "on it"?

Your manual just says, "Carefully rotate the Counterweight until the tonearm balances out." Typically, this means it will float level, parallel to the platter, when balanced.

 

[TunSalat]

Thank you
I found a decent sweet spot that is 0.8 gram above the recommended for this stylus/cartridge and I think I will just let it be at that
That's not much. And I don't listen to vinyl often. + that stylus has better lifespan than many others

Some comments in this thread gives me some comfort too

https://www.reddit.com/r/turntables/comments/qeskxw/high_vtf_wearing_down_records_true_or_myth

 

[borchee]

I found a decent sweet spot that is 0.8 gram above the recommended for this stylus/cartridge and I think I will just let it be at that
That's not much.

It's not much, if you look at it out of context. In reality, though, you increased the recommended force by 40%. You bought the cartridge to improve performace (probably), but now you're restricting it.
BTW, you'll always find a thread that'll give you comfort; regardless of your position being pro or contra.

 

[TunSalat]

It sounds great (yes it's the sound I improved). And I doubt this will wear down anything worth noting, and the stylus can take it
But it was good to check what people say
Do you have actual experience with a stylus set to heavier tracking force or heard about experiences where it did damage to anything?

btw you can also find threads that tell you it's illegal to have lights on inside the car while driving

 

[jrtrent]

The Audio-Technica AT-VM95SH vertical tracking force is rated at 1.8 - 2.2 grams
To prevent skating outwards it seems I have to set it to about 3 grams
Is this too much?

Sorry, but I have no experience with that particular stylus, or any other Shibata for that matter, and I don't recall ever trying to use a tracking force outside the manufacturer's recommended range. I assume there must be some reason AT limited the tracking force to 2.2 grams. Possibly the extra weight causes a less-than-ideal angle to the stylus as it tracks the groove. Hopefully, someone more knowledgeable here will know.

I heard that "damage to the records" is a semi-debunked myth, but not sure
What do you think?

Studies have been carried out using test records, frequency response data, and microscopic examination. Record damage is real, though mild damage might not be very important. For example, studies I've read show that a small elliptical (e.g., .2 X .7 mil) caused no measurable deviation in frequency response at 1 gram, but there was high frequency fall-off at 1.5 grams along with groove damage that was visible under a microscope. Due to its larger contact area, a conical stylus caused about the same level of wear at 3 grams as the elliptical did at 1.5 grams. Some good news, though, was in this report from their listening tests, "The absolute evaluation of record wear must be made using program material. To perform this test a record was chosen which contained a great deal of high frequency energy at high modulation levels. The record was played 100 times with a 0.2-mil elliptical tip at 1.5 grams. This record was then compared on an A-B basis with a new record. Three expert listeners could not detect any difference between the two records." Another study reached a similar conclusion, "One final comment: some of the photomicrographs of record grooves shown here exhibit what might be judged to be really horrendous wear patterns, and one might reasonably expect that these would have a serious effect on the reproduced sound. Actually, even the most sensitive playback tests fail to bear out this expectation."

Your more recent post referenced a Reddit thread, and Pspatial Audio was mentioned. Another of Pspatial's articles included this rather comforting quote, "RCA had set a standard regarding accelerated life-testing of standard stereophonic discs and and expected the same results from quadraphonic discs. The standard was to play the test record 100 times with a conventional low-quality record player using a ceramic cartridge, tracking at 4.5g. After this "life-test", the record was expected to play faultlessly on a standard, high-quality setup." https://pspatialaudio.com/snow_plough.htm

My personal experience is almost exclusively with elliptical and conical styli. My preference is to keep elliptical styli below 2 grams and to only use conicals at heavier tracking forces. I once did a casual record wear test using a conical DJ cartridge tracking at 3.25 grams on a Stanton DJ turntable with underhung arm design (so pretty high tracking angle error). I played one side of an album every morning for 100 consecutive mornings, and at the end I could hear no difference in sound quality between the played side and the previously unplayed side of that album, on either the Stanton turntable or on my Linn. With conicals, anyway, higher tracking forces don't give me any worries.

 

[jrtrent]

It's not much, if you look at it out of context. In reality, though, you increased the recommended force by 40%. You bought the cartridge to improve performace (probably), but now you're restricting it.

That makes sense, and it would likely bother my perhaps overly-anxious thinking. Roy Gandy once wrote, "If you alter the playing weight of a normal cartridge by 0.1 of a gram the stylus VTA will alter by around 1.5°. I seem to recall past threads calling that a gross exaggeration, but I still choose not to venture beyond a manufacturer's maximum vtf.

BTW, you'll always find a thread that'll give you comfort; regardless of your position being pro or contra.

That's one of the great things about hobby forums!

 

[bikspk]

I'd have to say that, based on cleaning and dealing with tens of thousands of used records that variations in tracking (and anti-skate) for a stylus that is aligned (mostly) with the records groove is the least of all worries.

I'd assume that what damages most records (during play) has to do with crud and crap and whatnot that gets dragged along the record groove by the stylus. I'd imagine that the aforementioned multiple play listening tests were done with records that weren't exposed to everyday suspended airborne crap (dust, carbon particles, nicotine, etc.) that settles onto records and doesn't get cleaned up along with greasy pizza fingers, beer, soda, spit and whatever else might get deposited as well as grunge that gets on the stylus and gets dragged over the vinyl repeatedly.

Was faced with a new record enthusiast that said she had problems with all of her records sounding like crap or had skating issues - asked her whether she'd cleaned the stylus (or the records) and she didn't know you had to do that.

Fun thing is that we get into the minutiae of tracking force within a fraction of a gram and measuring stylus wear and whatnot while the vast majority of people can't master the basics.

As for the original question - don't think I'd worry about damage but might be concerned if the suboptimal tracking force would cause static misalignment within the cartridge. I'm so used to having turntables with adjustable tracking and anti-skate that allow you to use different cartridge/stylus combos but occasionally run into a newer table without (AT-60??) that seem to work just fine without.

If you really wanted to reduce AS force from the AT3600L to the ATVM95SH you could do some geometry/math and rig up some contraption like from an old Sansui with a gantry, hanging weight and fishing wire but, unless you're seeing skating, I'd not bother.

Keep your records clean and the difference in skating probably won't make much difference (IMHO).

 

[borchee]

If you alter the playing weight of a normal cartridge by 0.1 of a gram the stylus VTA will alter by around 1.5°.

What is a "normal" cartridge? Besides that, neither you, me or the cartridge manufacturer knows what angle the lacquer was cut/left with. By how much the cartridge will rise/lower due to VTF is a direct result of compliance/stiffness of the suspension/spring. The suspension doesn't behave the same way at every load - this is why I would follow manufacturer's recommendation.

That's one of the great things about hobby forums!

We're talking technical stuff, so I'm interested in truth, not comfort.

 

[jrtrent]

I'd have to say that, based on cleaning and dealing with tens of thousands of used records that variations in tracking (and anti-skate) for a stylus that is aligned (mostly) with the records groove is the least of all worries.

I'd assume that what damages most records (during play) has to do with crud and crap and whatnot that gets dragged along the record groove by the stylus. I'd imagine that the aforementioned multiple play listening tests were done with records that weren't exposed to everyday suspended airborne crap (dust, carbon particles, nicotine, etc.) that settles onto records and doesn't get cleaned up along with greasy pizza fingers, beer, soda, spit and whatever else might get deposited as well as grunge that gets on the stylus and gets dragged over the vinyl repeatedly.

My own multiple play listening test was done at a time when I followed Linn's advice to let the stylus clean the record, then clean the stylus. Since getting my first record player in 1964, I've always had the habit (taught to me by my parents and an aunt) of having clean hands when handling records, not letting my fingers touch the playing surface, brushing the stylus clean after every side of play, and promptly returning records to their sleeves/jackets after playing. When I started getting most of my records from the bargain bins at used record outlets, I started using a vacuum record cleaning machine with Nitty Gritty brushes and their Pure 2 fluid to clean the records before they went on my turntable.

Was faced with a new record enthusiast that said she had problems with all of her records sounding like crap or had skating issues - asked her whether she'd cleaned the stylus (or the records) and she didn't know you had to do that.

I blame record companies for this. They just don't seem to include basic record and stylus care information on the sleeves or jackers like they used to.

Fun thing is that we get into the minutiae of tracking force within a fraction of a gram and measuring stylus wear and whatnot while the vast majority of people can't master the basics.

As for the original question - don't think I'd worry about damage but might be concerned if the suboptimal tracking force would cause static misalignment within the cartridge. I'm so used to having turntables with adjustable tracking and anti-skate that allow you to use different cartridge/stylus combos but occasionally run into a newer table without (AT-60??) that seem to work just fine without.

My older brother, his son-in-law, and I have all used an AT-LP60 or AT-LP60X for a period of years, and, yes, they seem to work just fine despite a complete a lack of user adjustments for cartridge setup. Clean hands, clean stylus, 400-hour replacement intervals (just like the manual says), and an annual belt replacement seem to keep these working well and not causing any perceivable record damage.