Dual 1219 auto start/stop issues

[redondo2018]

Have a Dual 1219 Euro model that I have relubed, changed the single/multi washer, new steuerpimpel (added this last note after seeing comments below, just forgot to mention), sprayed electrical contacts with cleaner, etc. It sounds great and SOMETIMES works completely correctly in auto. However, it certainly has a mind of its own, especially when it returns to the rest area. The arm returns and then - usually at 33.3 speed - the shut off fails to completely engage and the tonearm goes up and down, usually 2-3 times before coming to a rest (sometimes it simply won't stop). And sometimes (and again, not always) it will start playing and then return to the rest. I got lucky/unlucky and got a pretty good video of most of all of this (you'll see I had to move it to 45rpm to get it to stop this time):

What USUALLY stops it is moving the speed selector to 78, but even that doesn't always work at least the first time. I have gone through many forum posts, tried to make adjustments according to the service manual, etc, and at one point I had it working pretty much correctly all the time - however, I think moved the toggle to multi, and after that the issues came back. The one thing I have not done is completely taken the speed selector assembly apart, although I have gotten in there with cuetips and alcohol and gotten a lot (but not all) of the old grease out but there is new grease in there and I think it's moving smoothly. Here is it going up and down 2-3 times then stopping on its own:

ANY suggestions most welcome!

 

[olddude55]

If it's any consolation, I have similar issues with the stop/start lever not working correctly. If I try to start play automatically, it'll play the side then act something like your second video. Sometimes it'll disengage the idler wheel but not turn the motor off. I have to lift the deck out of its base and work the linkage by hand.
If I start play manually, it'll return the arm to rest and shut down like it's supposed to do. Got a sneaking suspicion there's an adjustment that has to be made, purely trial and error till you get it right and if you get it wrong, you could screw it up worse. So I haven't even tried to fix the 1219.

I'm looking forward to replies by people who really know about these things instead of people like me who wish they really knew. Or something like that.

 

[Eastham]

I believe this could be caused by a little plastic nub that attaches to the tonearm under the unit called a "steuerpimpel"

A guy in germany sells replacements on eBay I just bought some for my 601 since the auto functions on mine don't work at all.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Steuerpimpel-Glider-Pad-Guide-Stud-für-Dual-Plattenspieler-Turntable-2x-gelb/143025345162?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648

 

[olddude55]

Don't know about the OP, but I just replaced the steuerpimpel on mine a few weeks ago.

 

[chris_f]

I dont think this is the steurpimpel, the tonearm moves to smoothly. Looks like the motor isnt disengaging when the shutoff cycle completes. If you have the service manual it is at the bottom of pg 13. It is a pita to get it adjusted properly. But whats happening it sounds like is the motor isnt disengaging so it tries to restart. but because the start lever hasnt been engaged and the tonearm is over the rest the cam rotates but doesnt move the tonearm because it isnt in position to.

 

[olddude55]

I dont think this is the steurpimpel, the tonearm moves to smoothly. Looks like the motor isnt disengaging when the shutoff cycle completes. If you have the service manual it is at the bottom of pg 13. It is a pita to get it adjusted properly. But whats happening it sounds like is the motor isnt disengaging so it tries to restart. but because the start lever hasnt been engaged and the tonearm is over the rest the cam rotates but doesnt move the tonearm because it isnt in position to.

Which is the problem I have. Since it's a bee-yotch to do the adjusment and since it works fine in manual mode, I haven't messed with it and probably won't.

 

[chris_f]

Which is the problem I have. Since it's a bee-yotch to do the adjusment and since it works fine in manual mode, I haven't messed with it and probably won't.

It took me several tries when I restored my first one. Would love to tell you there is some secret trick to it but unfortunately there isnt unless you have done so many of these you could do it blindfolded. Compounding the issue is the manual makes it sound like "adjust this", the problem is adjust this only applies if nothing else is to far out of adjustment.

What does it do most of the time? What does it do at the beginning of the cycle?

 

[bberkom]

I had this same issue in my 1229 that I just fixed yesterday. Here are some photos.

The little arm that is circled in the first picture moves back and forth to guide the auto play/return mechanism into different parts of the track in the yellow plastic cam wheel. If it can’t move freely, then the table may just keep cycling. Mine was caked in old grease, and there is also a little tiny tension spring that is pinched between the lever arm and an indented post on the cam wheel. I cleaned the grease, and it helped. But I eventually had to completely disassemble and remove the plastic yellow cam, remove the arm I circled, clean it all up, and remake a new spring part out of another, stiffer spring. There is also the catch prawl that sits on the top side of the cam wheel, and that is what the gear teeth on the platter catch to start a cycle. That can get stuck and filled up too. It’s quite an undertaking to do it right, but it’s running perfectly now.

 

[redondo2018]

If it's any consolation, I have similar issues with the stop/start lever not working correctly. If I try to start play automatically, it'll play the side then act something like your second video. Sometimes it'll disengage the idler wheel but not turn the motor off. I have to lift the deck out of its base and work the linkage by hand.
If I start play manually, it'll return the arm to rest and shut down like it's supposed to do. Got a sneaking suspicion there's an adjustment that has to be made, purely trial and error till you get it right and if you get it wrong, you could screw it up worse. So I haven't even tried to fix the 1219.

I'm looking forward to replies by people who really know about these things instead of people like me who wish they really knew. Or something like that.

Thanks, yeah, I'm hoping I find the root of the problem, feels like it isn't really THAT far off...

 

[redondo2018]

I dont think this is the steurpimpel, the tonearm moves to smoothly. Looks like the motor isnt disengaging when the shutoff cycle completes. If you have the service manual it is at the bottom of pg 13. It is a pita to get it adjusted properly. But whats happening it sounds like is the motor isnt disengaging so it tries to restart. but because the start lever hasnt been engaged and the tonearm is over the rest the cam rotates but doesnt move the tonearm because it isnt in position to.

I have a new steurpimpel (first thing I replaced) - definitely has something to do with the motor not disengaging.

 

[redondo2018]

I had this same issue in my 1229 that I just fixed yesterday. Here are some photos.
View attachment 1352035 View attachment 1352031 View attachment 1352030
The little arm that is circled in the first picture moves back and forth to guide the auto play/return mechanism into different parts of the track in the yellow plastic cam wheel. If it can’t move freely, then the table may just keep cycling. Mine was caked in old grease, and there is also a little tiny tension spring that is pinched between the lever arm and an indented post on the cam wheel. I cleaned the grease, and it helped. But I eventually had to completely disassemble and remove the plastic yellow cam, remove the arm I circled, clean it all up, and remake a new spring part out of another, stiffer spring. There is also the catch prawl that sits on the top side of the cam wheel, and that is what the gear teeth on the platter catch to start a cycle. That can get stuck and filled up too. It’s quite an undertaking to do it right, but it’s running perfectly now.

Interesting - this was actually my first thought, but actually that I might have OVERLUBED the cam when I completely cleaned it (at least what you can clean without disassembly). I really hope I don't have to take the cam completely out - pretty afraid of never getting it back to even where it is if I do, but glad to hear that yours does work perfectly now!

 

[bberkom]

Yeah, overdoing it with new grease can be problematic. It’s probably best just to even leave it dry after you remove the old grease. I couldn’t get all of the old grease out without completely disassembling, but either way I’d focus your efforts initially on those levers attached to the cam wheel.

 

[redondo2018]

It took me several tries when I restored my first one. Would love to tell you there is some secret trick to it but unfortunately there isnt unless you have done so many of these you could do it blindfolded. Compounding the issue is the manual makes it sound like "adjust this", the problem is adjust this only applies if nothing else is to far out of adjustment.

What does it do most of the time? What does it do at the beginning of the cycle?

I'd say 85% of the time, the start switch sets it into motion correctly, then it plays fine until the run out. That's when the problems usually start. A couple of times it has stayed in the run out (but I think that's a different tonearm issue if I remember correctly) and then it returns all the way to the rest, drops down and then usually goes up and down 2-3 times before stopping on its own. Sometimes, maybe 10% of the time, it goes through the entire cycle in both 33 and 45 without a glitch (I don't use it for 78's). I've tried the "lock the arm in rest reset" thing a few times, but I think that if that helps at all it's when it (5% of the time) goes to the record and then returns to the rest immediately. I feel like it has SOMETHING to do with the connection of the switch, but I have sprayed contact cleaner in there and checked the movement and the metal makes contact. But since it usually works at 78 speed, and the idler moves that arm a bit (I'm guessing closer) the connection is stronger? Looking from below when I turn the speed selector, it looks like it moves it closer but that might be an optical illusion... I took some video from underneath at one point while working on it, so I'll try to find and post that.

 

[bberkom]

Mine did the exact same things. Either getting stuck in the runout, returning to the rest and cycling up and down over and over, or upon starting going to the edge of the record then heading back to the tonearm rest and cycling up and down. Very irregular.

It tended to be worse when the weather gets cold and run better in the summer as the grease gardens and softens slightly. Hence me fixing it now that it’s very cold.

 

[olddude55]

It took me several tries when I restored my first one. Would love to tell you there is some secret trick to it but unfortunately there isnt unless you have done so many of these you could do it blindfolded. Compounding the issue is the manual makes it sound like "adjust this", the problem is adjust this only applies if nothing else is to far out of adjustment.

What does it do most of the time? What does it do at the beginning of the cycle?

It starts. The start/stop lever doesn't return to center. The tonearm plays the record, returns to rest, disengages the idler, but the motor doesn't shut off. I suspect I've got the same problem you had. I'd really rather not dig that deep into it.
If I start the record manually, which I normally do anyway, the tonearm plays the record, returns to rest, shuts down normally.

 

[chris_f]

Interesting - this was actually my first thought, but actually that I might have OVERLUBED the cam when I completely cleaned it (at least what you can clean without disassembly). I really hope I don't have to take the cam completely out - pretty afraid of never getting it back to even where it is if I do, but glad to hear that yours does work perfectly now!

If you didnt then you need to and this is likely part of your problem. I assumed based on your initial post you had done all of this already. The little lever functioning properly is critical to the auto functions. Especially making sure it moves freely but also having a small amount of friction between the two pieces on the backside of this lever. Taking the cam out is not nearly as difficult as it looks. Take your time, take lots of pics, and try to do it all in one sitting so its fresh in your memory. Also if you didnt removing this and taking the platter bearing apart and cleaning and lubing it is important also.

Did you download the DIY service guide for these?

 

[chris_f]

It starts. The start/stop lever doesn't return to center. The tonearm plays the record, returns to rest, disengages the idler, but the motor doesn't shut off. I suspect I've got the same problem you had. I'd really rather not dig that deep into it.
If I start the record manually, which I normally do anyway, the tonearm plays the record, returns to rest, shuts down normally.

Sounds like the lever stack needs grease, and I actually had to cut quite a bit of material off of the return spring to get enough tension to make it work every time. The first time I took mine apart and put it back together I didnt have everything quite right and did the same thing, started it manually. Shutoff after worked fine and I always start it to brush my records before dropping the tonearm so it wasnt a big deal anyway.

 

[olddude55]

Sounds like the lever stack needs grease, and I actually had to cut quite a bit of material off of the return spring to get enough tension to make it work every time. The first time I took mine apart and put it back together I didnt have everything quite right and did the same thing, started it manually. Shutoff after worked fine and I always start it to brush my records before dropping the tonearm so it wasnt a big deal anyway.

To quote Dirty Harry, a man's got to know his limitations. Notransistors, I'm not. This particular hornet's nest will remain unpoked.

 

[redondo2018]

If you didnt then you need to and this is likely part of your problem. I assumed based on your initial post you had done all of this already. The little lever functioning properly is critical to the auto functions. Especially making sure it moves freely but also having a small amount of friction between the two pieces on the backside of this lever. Taking the cam out is not nearly as difficult as it looks. Take your time, take lots of pics, and try to do it all in one sitting so its fresh in your memory. Also if you didnt removing this and taking the platter bearing apart and cleaning and lubing it is important also.

Did you download the DIY service guide for these?

Yeah, starting to sound like I'll have to! Sorry if I got lost here, but which "little lever" are you referring to - the one the other user circled above or a different one? If you can reference the service manual # that would be tremendous, thanks!

 

[chris_f]

Go here and download the Cam and Cycling problems DIY. It runs through the process. In the service manual it is on pg 18, parts 231 and 232. They are on the opposite side of the cam gear as posted in the pic. They have to move freely but there has to be a bit of stiction between them. You use high weight shock oil to do this. The DIY guide explains it in detail. Also if you havent look in the VE database and look up the 1219 and go through the DIY service guide. It is very helpful in explaining things.

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=65030