DVD Audio

[schoolboy]

In my not at all humble opinion, both DVD-A and SACD sound MUCH better than CD's. They are both excellent. I wouldn't give the edge to either. Digital vinyl. Listenable where redbook CDs are so often bad.

I had a Pioneer multi-player (forget the model) and it had problems with DVD-A's - lots of them. I know others that had this issue with this particular Pioneer. I returned mine and got my $$ back. I bought a Toshiba SD-6915 (which you can pick up for around $100 shipped on ebay). I bought another one of these.

Excellent sound. Reliable for movies too. Crappy remote and user interface (you learn to live with it). Get one!

 

[soundboy]

In my not at all humble opinion, both DVD-A and SACD sound MUCH better than CD's. They are both excellent. I wouldn't give the edge to either. Digital vinyl. Listenable where redbook CDs are so often bad.

I had a Pioneer multi-player (forget the model) and it had problems with DVD-A's - lots of them. I know others that had this issue with this particular Pioneer. I returned mine and got my $$ back. I bought a Toshiba SD-6915 (which you can pick up for around $100 shipped on ebay). I bought another one of these.

Excellent sound. Reliable for movies too. Crappy remote and user interface (you learn to live with it). Get one!

There was a free firmware update from Pioneer on its universal player not playing DVD-As.

As for the MoFi SACD of Earth Wind & Fire's "That's The Way of the World" (30th Anniversary Audiophile Limited Edition), you can order it for $14.97 shipped at the below link....

http://www.deepdiscountcd.com/index.cfm?request=cd.cfm?upc=821797201667

 

[F1nut]

With SACD players that sell for less than $200 that play multi-channel as well as two channel stereo, why would anyone want to buy an expensive player that plays only two channels? Maybe the next offering will be an even more expensive player that will play only one channel.

Spoken like someone who has no idea what hi-rez sounds like.




As mentioned, DVD-A is all but dead as is DualDisc, however SACD is alive and well. IMO, get the best SACD/CD player you can afford. It really is a case of you get what you pay for. Be sure that the redbook playback is excellent as well because that format is going to be around for quite some time to come. Blue-Ray, as I understand it, is really more of a hi-rez video format than a hi-rez music format. I don't see it taking SACD's place.

 

[Kegger]

If I was buying one player and it was for music I would not sell myself short and get
one that didn't do multichannel or all the formats.

Multichannel hi rez is awsome if you have the setup for it and most people do have
a surround setup at least for movies. And by having both sacd and dvd-a you get a
greater range of disks to choose from. For me the denon players are wonderful on all
formats.

I also am not concerned with which medium wins out, I have plenty of sacd and dvd-a
disks that will be with me now that I bought them and since I have a universal player
if one does win I can play whatever disks I buy.

For my money with how well the denons play regular cd's and the hi rez disks that I
feel a 2 channel only or sacd only or dvd-a only is cheating yourself. IMHO

I like the fact of having so much to choose from by being able to utilize any of the
mediums and everytime I go to the store there is allways something there that I
find I want to listen to that to me the choices and selection is great. I have some
awsome sounding sacd and dvd-a disks in both surround and stereo, The new formats
are great and I for one am very thankful they are here, all of them!

So they can have all the format wars they want and the wars against a dedicated 2
channel player, with my denon I get my hi rez cake and eat my multi/stereo to. From
What I've heard, the better universal players (like a denon) you are not comprimizing
sound quality just because the player does everything instead of a dedicated 2 channel
only or sacd only player.

I would pay $500 new (used less) for a denon universal player anyday over some $1000
2 channel/sacd only player. Others can spend there money that way but I am very happy
and satisfied with both the freedom of choice and the quality of sound a good universal
player handling the duties provides.

Sorry for the long rambling but it's late and I couldn't figure how I wanted to end this post.

 

[QuadBob]

As mentioned, DVD-A is all but dead as is DualDisc, however SACD is alive and well. IMO, get the best SACD/CD player you can afford. It really is a case of you get what you pay for. Be sure that the redbook playback is excellent as well because that format is going to be around for quite some time to come. Blue-Ray, as I understand it, is really more of a hi-rez video format than a hi-rez music format. I don't see it taking SACD's place.

Boy.........on what do you base this judgement?

On Sony's official SACD release schedule at:

Sony SACD release schedule ?????????

The TRUTH is that Sony U.S. has all but orphaned SACD by spinning off their mixing and production studio in Denver (Sorry I forget the name), and on their own.......they're not releasing much of anything.

The few "real" popular SACDs being released are being done in Europe....and in MOST cases ONLY being released there (ie; Dire Straights - BIA, Deep Purple - Machine Head). Yes, MOFI and a couple of other independent producers are putting out a few SACD releases.......but virtually none are multichannel........including the titles previously mentioned that ALL had original quadraphonic mixes that languish in Sony's vaults (ie; EWF- That's the Way of the World, Edgar Winter - They Only Come out at Night, and BS&T....another opportunity missed!).

Sony has failed to even attempt to move SACD into the car audio market.....NO PC support, and NO independent label/studio support without a very significant capital investment and still requiring special production support from the very few disc manufacturer plants that can handle SACD.

Now, then I LOVE SACD done right.....either in Stereo or preferably in 5.1...the Elton John SACDs are absolutely awesome, as is the original quad mix of Deep Purple - Machine Head, the Brothers in Arms disc and even the War of the Worlds! But, Sony U.S. has done nothing but create a giant dung heap of confusion and unavailability!

DVD-Audio hasn't done much better release wise...but many more of them are multichannel (notable exceptions include the Neil Young releases). But, what DVD-A HAS done is moved into the car audio market via Elliott Schiener's Acura TL player, and other manufacturers have jumped on board as well........too slowly, but they're getting there.

And, DVD-Audio production has spread around enough (and dropped in cost enough) that many independent studios have jumped onboard with the capability, such that even the few guys that were recently doing DTS conversions of original quad material are now upgrading to DVD-A capability!
QpS (the Quadraphonic preservation Society) is now using DVD-Audio vice DTS for our preservation efforts.......because it DOES sound better, and unlike with SACD.......WE CAN! :thmbsp:

While I'm not a real fan of Dual Disc........it has reached a deeper market penetration then EITHER SACD or DVD-A.....by being mixed in right with the normal CDs, and including significant new releases in the format (like the new Eric Clapton album). And, while even Sony is on the bandwagon and releasing DualDiscs (questionable though they may be.....you have to look close to even SEE what you'll be buying......."enhanced stereo", Dolby Digital 2.0 or 5.1, etc.) and definitely NOT High Res.

Other labels ARE including High Res. DVD-Audio on the DVD side of the DualDisc.......like the now US released Brothers in Arms or the new Clapton!

So.......SACD is great, but all but abandoned by Sony U.S..........and while the other major labels aren't pushing DVD-A hard.....they at least continue to dribel out titles either as DualDiscs or as "deluxe packages" including a separate CD and DVD-A ala' Beck - Guero. But, the longterm outlook for DVD-A definitely looks better.....simply because it IS DualDisc compatible, IS becoming ever cheaper and easier to implement independently, and at least incrementally is becoming available in the car audio market.

For us devoted "quadraphiles".......none of the above matters much, as we are producing our "own" quadraphonic conversions to DVD-A ourselves! So, even if all the labels pull the plug tomorrow....we have the capability to both convert our original quad material and enjoy it on the wide variety of DVD-Audio capable players!

 

[F1nut]

To date 3279 SACD's released and last time I could find a number for DVD-A's it was under 900, I consider that dead.

 

[QuadBob]

To date 3279 SACD's released and last time I could find a number for DVD-A's it was under 900, I consider that dead.

QUANTITY does not equal QUALITY...................... unless your name is K-Tel!

It is infinitely easier (and more profitable) to simply "reprocess" existing two-channel releases than to develop even a back catalog title for DVD-Audio.

The DVD-Audio releases (either new or back catalog) require remixing to 5.1, Dolby Digital and/or DTS mastering for DVD compatibility, GUI menu development, "extra" video content, etc. So, MUCH more is involved and minimally required to release a title as a DVD-Audio disc.

Sony very simply went straight for the $$$ in our pockets. They didn't want to adopt DVD-A as a standard because it limited their cut of the profit $$.......then proceeded to "push" SACD just enough to ensure that DVD-Audio didn't receive wide-spread initial support, and promptly pulled the plug once they thought they had succeeded!

The entire scenario is VERY MUCH like the VHS/Betamax battle.....and they are about to foist it on us again with Blu-ray vs. Hi-Def DVD. Purely profit motivated with the real losers being "us" the consumers!

A much more telling comparison is "how many NEW titles" are being released in either format and are aimed at the mainstream music consumer to "build" the next generation of audiophiles.......

Alisha Keyes.........DVD-Audio
Norah Jones..........DVD-Audio
Porcupine Tree.......DVD-Audio
Clapton..................DVD-Audio
etc. etc.

What does Sony counter with? The entire back catalog of Bob Dylan and the Rolling Stones.....predominately "stereo" re-releases. Which they promptly let go into "out of print" again after their initial pressing/release.

And, it becomes obvious when you simply look at a re-issue like Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms..........in Europe; a Multi-channel Hybrid SACD, NOT released in the U.S. Here we get the DualDisc.....and thankfully it is at least in 24/48 DVD-Audio! If Sony had a say.....it would have become a totally NON High Res. "enhanced stereo" or Dolby Digital compressed release! :thumbsdn:

Thankfully, the mainstream audio manufacturer's aren't being taken to the cleaners again and quickly offered up "universal" players that would play either format. Thus giving us the ability to buy either format and enjoy it via our Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, etc. players.

And, at least a few of us will continue to search out good titles and get them from "wherever" they are available.....whether in Europe, Asia or the US.
Because of this I have absolutely no problem with SACD per se, but I've got a really big problem with Sony U.S.!!!

In my own personal collection SACD's probably do outnumber DVD-A....and at least "some" of them like the Elton John reissues are enough to blow even Joe 6-pack out of the water when heard on a properly setup system! But, it doesn't mean much when Joe 6-pack once exposed and ready to jump on board cannot even FIND a title that was JUST released late last year in a local music retailer!! :thumbsdn:

SACD under the present marketing scenario is going nowhere..........

At least DVD-Audio either as a stand alone release, bonus disc, or DualDisc is continuing to build momentum!

QB

 

[F1nut]

Damn, I typed this long reply, hit prereview and lost it. Oh well, I'm not re-typing it. In short, I disagree with almost all of your post. DVD-A is inferior, DualDisc is even worse. At least with SACD you know you're getting true hi-rez.

Plenty of "NEW" SACD titles.

Europe only releases are because of royalites and greedy labels.

Sony and Philips are still in the SACD business.

How can a format that may or may not play in a given unit build anything??? The specs for DualDisc mearly state that the DVD side must at least be as good as the non-redbook side. What a load of crap!!!

 

[QuadBob]

Damn, I typed this long reply, hit prereview and lost it. Oh well, I'm not re-typing it. In short, I disagree with almost all of your post. DVD-A is inferior, DualDisc is even worse. At least with SACD you know you're getting true hi-rez.

DVD-A is inferior to what???? SACD? Do you have ANY facts or measurements to back that statement up? DVD-A's specs. are easily available... up to 24 bit/96khz in multichannel, 24bit/192khz in stereo. Last I saw Sony didn't want to discuss their "proprietary" specifications for SACD.

But, my point here is NOT that SACD is inferior or doesn't measure up...whether it does or not is really immaterial to this discussion. IT DOES SOUND GREAT.....on a system with the resolution to reproduce it! As does DVD-Audio.

My primary interest is in multichannel sound.....bet you couldn't have guessed that! And, as for over 30 years I've considered myself a connoisseur of "dead formats"........I have absolutely no problem with adding two or three more to my sizable collection. However, I really don't like watching history repeat itself.....through the labels greed, mismanagment and poor marketing! And, at least in these matters.....Sony is the King!

To get back to the point of this thread........I'd recommend anyone shopping for a new DVD player....to pay particular attention to whether it is DVD-Audio AND SACD capable! You won't realize what they are capable of until you can really listen to them ......and why shortchange yourself?

And, I simply cannot imagine anyone buying a $13K SACD ONLY player. It's not the price....if you got it, flaunt it! :thmbsp: It's that unless you're just totally into classical releases, Sony will leave you high and dry searching for any new titles OR EVEN the titles they've already released! :thumbsdn:

As to DualDisc.....we're pretty much on the same page, I really don't care for the format either........even though my Pioneer Universal player (DV-655A) doesn't have any problem with them. But, their market penetration cannot simply be dismissed.......they are in the bins, mixed right in with the redbood CDs.......not shuffled off to the back corner where even the staff don't know where they are! And, they not only CAN they be High Res......many of them (Sony excepted) ARE!

Plenty of "NEW" SACD titles.

See my link to Sony's official website in my previous post. For F1nut.....can you name 10 non-classical releases in the last month? Two Months? 3 Months? I buy them as fast as I can find them! Try going to SonyMusic.com and ordering even the already released titles.....I have! It takes them all of about 30 seconds to bang my credit card.........and six weeks later, still no discs.....then a simple email telling me those titles are no longer available, and finally refunding my purchase $$ I almost wanted to demand they pay me interest on all the time they tied up my bucks! :thumbsdn:

Europe only releases are because of royalites and greedy labels.

Possibly, but I don't think so........no problem with War of the Worlds. The Dire Straits - BIA made it out here within about 2 months........Oops as a DualDisc DVD-Audio though! (Still haven't listened to my copy to compare...as I just love the SACD which I had to ORDER from Acoustics Sounds to get!)

Sony and Philips are still in the SACD business.

Still trying to squeeze that turnip, eh? I haven't paid much attention to the "new" players.....as I'm content with the Pioneer for now, although seriously considering "moving up" to one of the Denon Universal decks (better bass management issues more than anything else) But for software/discs.......again I refer you to my previous Sony link!

How can a format that may or may not play in a given unit build anything??? The specs for DualDisc mearly state that the DVD side must at least be as good as the non-redbook side. What a load of crap!!!

No argument from me on these points F1nut!

However, Sony is the leading contender for producing the lamest Dualdiscs.....go ahead try and define "enhanced stereo" for me again! And, the reality is that Dualdiscs ARE THERE.....and new titles are being pumped into the marketplace weekly! Luckily, my Pioneer doesn't have a problem with them....so I'll continue to pick and choose....buying any that interest me THAT ARE at least 24/48 5.1...which is predominately what you get when they are DVD-Audio on the DVD side! :thmbsp:

Because my NON-Sony universal player will let me enjoy them!

QB

 

[tcdriver]

DVD-A is inferior

Wrong

DualDisc is even worse

Half true. Some DualDiscs are low resolution Dolby Digital, so, yes they are worse. Some are high-resolution DVD-A.

At least with SACD you know you're getting true hi-rez.

Wrong again. What about the Nora Jones SACD disc. They copied the CD master onto the SACD. Starting with CD resolution and then transferring it to SACD does not guarantee it will be high resolution.

I like SACD. It is a good high resolution format. I also like DVD-A. It too is a good high resolution format. Which is better? I think that depends a lot on the individual recordings. I have plenty of good sounding SACD's and DVD-A's and enough poor ones in each format. The format does not guarantee the quality. I do not have to choose one format or the other. I can enjoy both.

 

[Aage]

You have to admit...

Can't help but love a good format war!

:rofl: :yes:

 

[goldear]

Hey, I'm in the SACD camp. My reasoning is that I'm primarily interested in Hi-Res 2 channel playback, and SACD is slightly better suited for this. But I do enjoy occasionally putting a multichannel SACD on my video system, and experiencing the whole surround phenomenon.

But, if DVD-A wins, I won't be too upset. I will just buy a good universal player, and join the winning team.

What will upset me is if this stupid format war causes both hi-res digital formats to fail due to consumer confusion on the matter. What would be even worse is if CD starts to go away, not in response to SACD or DVD-Audio's increase in market share, but in response to crappy MP3 downloads to Ipods. That is my version of Hell...

 

[soundboy]

What will upset me is if this stupid format war causes both hi-res digital formats to fail due to consumer confusion on the matter. What would be even worse is if CD starts to go away, not in response to SACD or DVD-Audio's increase in market share, but in response to crappy MP3 downloads to Ipods. That is my version of Hell...

I think this is happening already. People are buying iPods or similar devices and buying individual songs instead of an album. In a recent interview, John Oates (of Hall and Oates fame) said that the album format, as we know it, is disappearing. The lure of cheap/free (and who cares if it's legal or not) downloads is more attractive that improved sound quality to the general masses. This is the main reason, in my opinion, that SACD/DVD-A failed in the marketplace. Of course, format wars and bad marketing don't help either.

 

[goldear]

I think this is happening already. People are buying iPods or similar devices and buying individual songs instead of an album. In a recent interview, John Oates (of Hall and Oates fame) said that the album format, as we know it, is disappearing. The lure of cheap/free (and who cares if it's legal or not) downloads is more attractive that improved sound quality to the general masses. This is the main reason, in my opinion, that SACD/DVD-A failed in the marketplace. Of course, format wars and bad marketing don't help either.

Man, I hope that you're wrong. But I fear that you might be right. I believe that all of us who care about audio need to make a real effort to support these high-resolution formats, or risk being stuck with just crappy MP3s in the future...

 

[F1nut]

Damn Bob, do your posts have to be so long?

DVD-A is inferior to what???? SACD? Do you have ANY facts or measurements to back that statement up? DVD-A's specs. are easily available... up to 24 bit/96khz in multichannel, 24bit/192khz in stereo. Last I saw Sony didn't want to discuss their "proprietary" specifications for SACD.

DSD specs are no secret, 1 bit sampled at 2.82Mhz. DVD-A's max 24/192 isn't much different than a good upsampled CD at 24/192 and last I looked no one was calling upsampled CD's, hi-rez. Although I will admit that upsampled CD's on my unit do sound pretty damn good.

can you name 10 non-classical releases in the last month? Two Months? 3 Months? I buy them as fast as I can find them! Try going to SonyMusic.com and ordering even the already released titles.....

I'm sure I could if I wasn't so tired right now. However, I will agree with you that there are a larger percentage of classical to other types. As I understand it, it's because those interested in classical are the ones buying SACD's. I, like you, do wish there was a wider selection. Never ordered from Sony, but almost all the other internet music sources, never a problem getting what I order.

The Dire Straits - BIA made it out here within about 2 months........Oops as a DualDisc DVD-Audio though!

I had BIA on SACD a few days after it's release in Europe. You just gotta know where to shop. :thmbsp:

Ok, enough from me right now, too tired. We'll have to agree to disagree, but agree about DualDisc. Enjoy your multi-channel, I'm enjoying my 2 channel.

 

[tcdriver]

I believe that all of us who care about audio need to make a real effort to support these high-resolution formats, or risk being stuck with just crappy MP3s in the future...

I strongly agree that one should support the formats one likes. I just hope the high-resolution formats will hang on long enough to succeed.

 

[soundboy]

Based on the 3,263 SACD titles listed at sa-cd.net (as of 9/13/2005), here's a breakdown of titles by musical style....

Blues.....62
Chanson Francaise.....46
Chinese pop.....103
Classical.....1,421
Classical - Chamber.....247
Classical - Crossover.....2
Classical - Instrumental.....200
Classical - Opera.....36
Classical - Orchestral.....642
Classical - Vocal.....221
Country.....27
Demo/Samplers.....67
Easy Listening.....23
Folk.....6
Independent.....4
Inspirational.....2
Japanese pop.....110
Jazz.....634
Jazz - Fusion.....53
Jazz - Vocal.....69
Latin.....11
New Age.....18
Pop/Rock.....379
Pop/Rock - Alternative.....11
Pop/Rock - Dance.....7
Pop/Rock - Electronic.....6
Pop/Rock - Hip Hop/Rap.....1
Pop/Rock - Reggae.....4
Soundtrack.....54
Spoken Word.....3
Traditional.....29
Unassigned.....110
Vocal.....118
World.....35

 

[Charivari]

Well, whatever audio format is superior or whomever wins the argument, I'm covered; my Toshiba SD-4960 arrived last night and I picked it up this morning. With the addition of the 5.1 interconnects, I think I have a chance to win that competition on who has the biggest rats nest of wires behind their setup that was discussed a few months back.

So far, hmm, the sound of DVD-A or SACD screams for attention compared to CD sound, but that may be a good thing. A subtle improvement, but less fatiguing. More listening is warranted. Whatever my conclusion, at least I have a new DVD player to replace my 6 year old Samsung M-101 that was starting to die on me.

Ok, y'all may return to your fight over which format is best.
- JP

 

[hifi_nut]

Based on the 3,263 SACD titles listed at sa-cd.net (as of 9/13/2005), here's a breakdown of titles by musical style....
Chinese pop.....103

Good Lord, who would ever have thought?
Oh, I forgot - something about being the biggest market in the world, right?
Jorge

 

[soundboy]

Good Lord, who would ever have thought?
Oh, I forgot - something about being the biggest market in the world, right?
Jorge

Several clarifications are needed to explain the Chinese pop SACDs.

1. I am the person who provide almost all of the information on sa-cd.net about all those Chinese pop SACDs. And with few exceptions, I own all of them (3rd and 4th row)

2. With some exceptions being released by local independent labels, all of those Chinese pop SACDs are released by Hong Kong divisions of the Big 4 (Sony BMG/Universal/EMI/Warner Music) and not by mainland Chinese music companies....yes, Warner Music....see for yourself....

3. Most of the music on these SACDs are in Cantonese, not Mandarin, which is the official dialect in the mainland. Kind of tells you how hi-rez obsessive those Hong Kong audiophiles are.

4. Hong Kong music companies released more than just local pop music on SACD. There are SACDs of soundtrack of "The Sound of Music" (HK BMG), albums by Sarah Brightman (HK EMI), Sonny Rollins' "Way Out West" on multi-channel hybrid SACD (Naxos - a HK music company), etc. There are SACD titles released by Hong Kong/Chinese/Taiwanese music companies in the "Traditional", "Classical", and "New Age" section of sa-cd.net.

5. As of about a month ago, Stephen, the owner of sa-cd.net, informed me that he will no longer add SACD titles released by Hong Kong/China/Taiwan music companies. Without these titles being added to the list at sa-cd.net, few would know about that other Norah Jones SACD. But the website belongs to Stephen. I believe F1 has this SACD.

6. The total number of SACD released worldwide is more than the 3,278 titles indicated on sa-cd.net as of 9/23/2005. Within the past month, Hong Kong Universal Music has already released another SACD title. And the new SACD by audiophile favorite Jacintha is also amongst the missing titles because it was released by a, I think, Hong Kong music company.