eBay "pinging": Does it work? Is it moral?

[KlipschFan61]

Again folks, pinging properly, there is no risk to your having to pay for the item...

Two words come to mind here...

Bid retraction.

 

[pioneer54]

there should be no increment increases for any bids bases on value. a penny over highest is the highest. that would eliminate pinging and shilling will it not.

 

[ByteWrangler]

If the purpose is to expose the current high bidder's limit before actually ending up with the high bid, this doesn't seem like it should work at all unless the rules for proxy bidding are inconsistent, and would work only about half the time even so. Or I don't understand them correctly - always possible.

Let's say the auction stands at $325, the bid increment is $5 and the current high bidder's limit is $345.67.

You: $330
Proxy: $335
You: $340
Proxy: $345
You: $350 Oops...now you're the current high bid

You know only that the previous high bidder's limit was somewhere from $345.00 to 349.99, and you have outbid that.

Similar scenario, but instead the current high bid is $330 instead of $325 (hi bidder still has auto-bid limit of $345.67).

You: $335
Proxy: $340
You: $345
Proxy: $345.67
You: Ah Ha!... Busted! "Pinging" works in this case

Is this allowed? Why? The proxy bid is less than the increment, and the inconsistency is what makes the ploy work. Changing the rules so that the proxy bids are by full increment only would eliminate this.

With incremental bid rules applied to proxy, that last scenario becomes:

You: $335
Proxy: $340
You: $345

Proxy cannot beat your last bid by the increment, so proxy stops bidding. You are currently on the hook and know only that phb's (previous high bidder's) limit was somewhere from $340.00 to $349.99.

Ebay may want to work out some protocol so that phb doesn't lose in this case, since technically he matched that bid earlier (conditionally, anyway). Perhaps an "Extend limit to the next increment if necessary" checkbox, or some such. Doing that wouldn't "tip his hand" until the "Pinger" actually outbid him.

Am I missing something?

 

[Fisherdude]

...

Let's say the auction stands at $325, the bid increment is $5 and the current high bidder's limit is $345.67.

You: $330
Proxy: $335
You: $340
Proxy: $345
You: $350 Oops...now you're the current high bid

You know only that the previous high bidder's limit was somewhere from $345.00 to 349.99, and you have outbid that...

Am I missing something?

Yep. Proxy bidder bids $345, you bid $350, your bid is rejected because it is below $350.67, which is the minimum $5 increment above proxy bidder's $345.67. You now know that proxy bidder's max is between $345 and $350.

Proxy bidder only has to tie your bid to remain high bidder, but you must beat his proxy by the increment.

 

[pioneer54]

i understand what byte's reasoning is. it's what i was getting at with no increments. that way u have to outbid the highest bid or his proxy. a tie goes to the earliest bidder.

 

[Fisherdude]

... that way u have to outbid the highest bid or his proxy. a tie goes to the earliest bidder.

Correct.

I need to reiterate for the sake of folks who haven't read the entire thread...pinging to determine another bidder's proxy, if you don't intend to bid or you retract your bid, is completely unethical.

If you ping without intending to try to win the auction, you're simply running another bidder up to his max bid, and then you're just walking away.

 

[StarMover]

I'm mostly a seller, so I think everyone should bid very insanely high to insure they win my auctions. :yes:

 

[ByteWrangler]

Yep. Proxy bidder bids $345, you bid $350, your bid is rejected because it is below $350.67, which is the minimum $5 increment above proxy bidder's $345.67. You now know that proxy bidder's max is between $345 and $350.

Proxy bidder only has to tie your bid to remain high bidder, but you must beat his proxy by the increment.

I see. Thanks for the explanation.

Pinging works because the proxy high bid is different than the rest of the bids and, as a result, gives warning before you top the proxy max. Short-term, this would work in favor of the seller (and eBay) because it allows automatic bids to be run up to their max by anyone curious, malicious or whatever, with little to no risk they'll actually win if they don't want to. Long-term, it's not so clear. If it drives out buyers unwilling or unable to snipe, bid manually, or get software to do it for them, they'll be worse off.

If it's smart, eBay will do something to "cloak" the maximum so this practice will stop. Making rules banning the practice would be, I think, futile and probably counterproductive (what??? I can't bid manually until I reach my own limit???). Relying of people's better nature is a non-starter. Making it so it no longer works is the only realistic choice. Something as simple as allowing any bid higher than the proxy's max to be accepted, as long as it meets the minimum increment above the previous actual bid, would seem to do it.

I'm certainly no expert on eBay. I have bid on and won exactly one item, and I sniped that. I've bought quite a number of things at live auctions, though.

Interesting thread and I've learned a lot. May never put it to use, but thanks anyway!

 

[caddisgeek]

Why tip your hand?
I just watch them and wait.........

BTW, bid wacky numbers. like $27.66, not $25.00, $103.62, not $100.00, and you'll beat out the Joneses who stick to the even price points quite often. :yes:

I agree, I decide what I want to pay, wait till the last 30 seconds, bid my max amount. I miss out on a bit of stuff, but I never pay more than I was willing to fork out in the first place.

 

[bordeno]

Again, as a buyer, there is no advantage to finding out what another's max bid is. Knowing that should have no effect on what you are willing to pay.
The fact that pinging is a waste of time supercedes the ethicality.

There is no advantage; in fact, there is a distinct disadvantage, to artificially driving up the price of the auction.

Snipe.

 

[JohnG]

Again, as a buyer, there is no advantage to finding out what another's max bid is. Knowing that should have no effect on what you are willing to pay.
The fact that pinging is a waste of time supercedes the ethicality.

There is no advantage; in fact, there is a distinct disadvantage, to artificially driving up the price of the auction.

Snipe.

You're right, unless you want punish another bidder for consistently bidding on all of a particular item and not reserving at least one item for everyone else to bid on. :screwy:

 

[Fisherdude]

...Pinging works because the proxy high bid is different than the rest of the bids and, as a result, gives warning before you top the proxy max...

Well, yes and no. There is a bit of luck involved, and you can get caught. Your statement would be correct if rephrased as: "Pinging ONLY works WHEN the proxy high bid is different than the rest of the bids and, as a result, gives warning before you top the proxy max".

In the example you originally gave, the original bidder's proxy ended on an unusual amount, and you are correct that you get a warning.

However, if the proxy bid is a multiple of the current increment, i.e. the proxy was $345 even, then everything depends on whether or not you start bidding an odd number or an even number of bids below the other bidder's proxy.

For example: Other bidder's proxy is $345 even.

If your first bid was $335, other bidder's proxy automatically bids $340, you bid $345 and your bid is rejected. Your bid was rejected because it was NOT at least $5 above his proxy, and you now know that his proxy is between $345.00 and $349.99. If his proxy had been $350, your $345 bid would have resulted in his bid jumping to $350.

However, if your first bid was $330 instead of $335, other bidder's proxy automatically bids $335, you bid $340, proxy jumps to $345, which is his max. You bid $350, which is $5 above his last bid, and YOU are now the high bidder. No warning.

Since you have absolutely no way of knowing whether or not the other bidder's proxy ends on a multiple of the increment or some odd amount, you're at risk of ending up as the high bidder every time you ping.

 

[TOO LOUD???]

Pinging? I feel it's annoying and drives up prices. I don't believe in sniping software, don't want to give out my info, and if I'm too lazy to bid myself I don't need said item. I figure out my max price including shipping set the alarm on my palm pilot to go off 5 or 10 min before auction ends then log in and go to the item I want, if it's still below my max I bid but don't confirm til 30 sec then confirm bid. If I win great if not oh well someone wanted it more.

 

[ProAc_Fan]

Again folks, pinging properly, there is no risk to your having to pay for the item, since you are able to determine when your so called "bids" are getting close to the max proxy bid of the current high bidder. The unfortunate by-product is that the price gets run up tot he proxy max by a person who has no intention of really buying the product, or bidding to obtain it...just to either run up the price, or to obtain "intelligence". That is just wrong.

Y'all go ahead, if you wish, but instant karma is a mutha. What goes around does get on ya...being translated means, you will reap what you sow, later than you sow, and greater than you sow.

I'm out.

Rich P

That is the text book definition of shilling. Bidding with no intention of being the winning bidder is not kosher in my books or Ebays policy either.



Mike

 

[70salesguy]

One thing that you folks seem to be forgetting about the other bidder who has a max bid entered and whose bid is being raised by proxy is this. The proxy bid is raised by specified amounts that are clearly defined by eBay.

The "pinger" is NOT restricted to raise HIS bid by specified amount.

That's why it works.

A good percentage of you keep forgetting that this tactic was prescribed to be used ONLY when there were multiple listings of the same type item without a BIN price and it was a tactic to be used against a buyer that was attempting to buy every one of the items that was listed. While it certainly was his "right" to buy all of the items that were listed, he was obviously a "deep pocket" buyer who was buying to resell.

This buyer later turned out to be a reseller of these items and these items were being sold off on eBay by a national retailer because they were old stock and newer models had been brought onto the market. Most were relatively expensive items and ALL were listed without a BIN price.

It was desireable to see where his "max" bid was and there was nothing immoral or rule-breaking about "pinging" to find where his max bid was.

Specific example. Seller had 5 turbowidgets listed. The deep-pocket bidder had a bid in on all 5 units. The pinger pinged up and found his max bid was $500 on turbowidget #1. He then checks each of the others and finds out that all 5 TWs were max bid at $500.

What's different with that than at a "real" auction where 5 identical HolyGrail model 666 receivers still in the box found in the backroom of Leroy's Overpriced Audio Emporium. You keep trying to buy one but you have a self-imposed limit of $500. Each one that comes up, you bid against Dick Deepockets and each time when the bid hits $500 and you drop out. 5 items that bid up to $500 and then you dropped out.

Were you shill bidding? You may have cost Dick DP thousands of dollars and you didn't buy a darn one!

I also have trouble with the concept that this is any worse than "sniping".

Yes, it is true that "sniping" is about the only way to win a desireable item on the bay these days other than placing a "jumbo bid", but that's the way it is.

2 additional notes.

1. Eventually Dick Deepockets figured it out and would not bid on all items. He saved money and others got a chance to buy without having to bid against "deep pockets". Now - did the seller get cheated? Because before, we weren't being fair to Dick DP. :scratch2:

2. Dick Deepockets is at this exact moment selling off on eBay some of the items that he bought a few years ago. He is "retiring". He is only selling one of each type item at a time. :scratch2:

Also, I have found that if I read all the previous posts in a particular thread, I am better prepared to add my own post.

This has been very interesting, but most have not undertood the purpose and intent as well as the specific situation where this was used.

 

[Fisherdude]

One thing that you folks seem to be forgetting about the other bidder who has a max bid entered and whose bid is being raised by proxy is this. The proxy bid is raised by specified amounts that are clearly defined by eBay.

The "pinger" is NOT restricted to raise HIS bid by specified amount.

That's why it works...

I'm not entirely sure I agree. The proxy bid can go up by ANY amount between $.01 and the next increment.

While the proxy bid must go up by the increment, and the pinger can bid anything he wants as long as it's at least the increment, the next proxy bid will be, (unless the last competing bid left less remaining than the increment), the increment, so you're back where you were.

Your next bid will either 1. Be below the proxy and get rejected and the next proxy bid is a full increment; 2. Be below the proxy and get rejected and the next proxy bid is LESS than a full increment; 3. Match the proxy and get rejected; 4. Beat the proxy by less than the increment and get rejected, or 5. Beat the proxy by bidding at least the increment and be accepted as the new high bid.

Only one out of five possibilities results in the proxy jumping to less than the next increment. Only if it jumps by less than the increment do you know what the proxy was. Three out of five possibilities tell you nothing. Otoh, one out of five possibilities results in you ending up as the high bidder. Not good odds.

...Yes, it is true that "sniping" is about the only way to win a desireable item on the bay these days other than placing a "jumbo bid", but that's the way it is...

That's simply not correct, and I'm a dedicated sniper. I wish it was correct! I'd win more auctions! As has been pointed out multiple times, no snipe will ever beat any higher bid that was placed before OR AFTER the snipe. Ever. If the current bid is $32, and I place a $100 snipe one second before the end of the auction, and the guy with the $32 bid had a proxy for $100.01, HE WINS. The ONLY way a snipe can EVER win an auction is if the snipe was HIGHER than any other bid placed at ANY time before the auction ends. Highest bid wins and it doesn't matter when it was placed. Period. Highest bid wins.

...Also, I have found that if I read all the previous posts in a particular thread, I am better prepared to add my own post.

Alright, this one is right on the money!:thmbsp: There are quite a few posts in the last half of the thread that are repeating things that were already covered quite well in the first half.

Which leads me to think that this thread may be reaching its "maturation" point, unless there's something new in the next day or so.

We're kind of repeating ourselves.

It's been very educational and very interesting and (Thank you!! Thank you!!:ntwrthy::ntwrthy always respectful of all other members who are posting. Unless there's something really new, I will probably close this one sometime tomorrow.

Thanks to all who posted for a great discussion!

 

[70salesguy]

Did you miss the part about the "jumbo bid" being the best way to beat a snipe?

I define a "jumbo bid" as one that is significantly higher than what an informed buyer would expect the item to sell for, but still at a level he would pay, if he has to. I have placed a "jumbo" bid" before when I just had to have the item.

Example : I expected the item to go for a max of $1200. Although I hoped I would not have to pay it, I placed a max bid of $1600. If someone sniped me at slightly above $1600, I could live with it, but based on past auction history, $1200 would have been the expected high bid.

I ended up with the item at slightly above $1300 and was happy. But I would have paid the $1600 if it ended there.

I also find that doing your research on the "going price" for a desired item as well as your competing bidders pays off big time.

Of course, as always....don't bid unless you are willing to pay.

I have never retracted a bid or not followed through on a transaction with a completed purchase.

Abraham Lincoln : " tis better to be silent and thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt".

 

[Fisherdude]

Did you miss the part about the "jumbo bid" being the best way to beat a snipe?

No, no, I didn't. That would be the "highest bid wins" that I referred to in my post.

... But I would have paid the $1600 if it ended there...

Then you bid the maximum you were willing to pay, which is what any experienced bidder would do.

...Abraham Lincoln : " tis better to be silent and thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt".

Agreed. Thread is closed.