EL34 Integrated Amp Entry

[BigRiver]

Integrated EL34 stereo amps get real heavy, it's at that power level that we start splitting things up into monoblocks. The iron required to get good sound (output transformers) plus the power transformer to run it all, starts pushing the 70-80 pound mark. More than a lot of folks are willing to carry or move.
That being said, my friend has a cronus magnum by Rogue audio. He only has nice things to say about it. I'm not sure what the price is these days, but you should save money until you can get one. (I think it's a few hundo past you're stated budget)
I'd forget about single ended amps.
Se el34 is going to put out less power and more distortion than a push pull 6bq6. 7 days a week and twice on Sunday
Single ended is a step backwards from where you're at.

I can see the iron getting heavy pretty fast, especially as you move up, that's a good point to remember for sure.

Since I am currently running Forte iv's and will likely only run efficient speakers in this set up, and since it's a smallish - 14+17 room speakers 10' apart and 9' from the listening position, big watts are not a big concern.

I bet at normal listening levels we typically don't break a watt! That does not mean I don't like volume when we want it or appreciate the additional headroom and control a bit more power brings to the table.

For reference, a friend put his Decware Zen anniversary (2wpc) in for a little over a week while waiting for some things to show up and I thought for a minute that this was easily doable. In the end I ended up thinking I would need monos (6wpc) of the smaller decwares to be happy or one of their larger stereo amps and I really do need an integrated in this position.

I'll look into the Cronus, I've heard good things about Rogue in general and I typically like American when I can get it.

 

[BigRiver]

Bell 6060 might be near the top of the list?

Now here's a unit I haven't seen. If anything has the potential to unseat the Sherwood S5000 based on look alone it's this one, stunning indeed.

Although I will likely lean in to a newer/ish unit for this set up since quite a few people will be using it, the Bell Carillon 6060 is now on the must have list.

Have you owned one? If so what is your experience with it? Also I would definitely want to have it rebuilt when I do acquire one, any recommendations for a ground up resto?

Thanks for the excellent suggestion!

 

[Selmerdave]

Haven't owned one but by most accounts it's one of the great tube amps and happens to fit your bill perfectly. There is some discussion on AK in a few threads, perhaps someone with direct experience will chime in here.

 

[TriodeLuvr]

Why are you searching for a more powerful amplifier when you have Klipsch Forte speakers? Your complaints regarding the Sherwood seem to center on midrange sonics, not a lack of power. And throwing Chinese amps with 2nd rate iron into the picture really confuses me. I think you're probably in need of a good 300B SET with a volume control, but that's not actually an integrated amp. Despite the new definition promoted by millennial marketers, an integrated amp has at least an input selector, gain control and tone controls. I don't recall ever seeing anything like that from a quality Western manufacturer, so you might be out of luck on that score. The bottom line here is that the improvement in speed and definition you're describing will require a SET, and at some point you're going to have to decide which is more important - sonics or utility.

Jack

 

[reverend13]

I really love my HH Scott 299 for midrange clarity and paired with my Klipsch speakers, for both streaming and vinyl. I'm also trying to revive a 299D (thanks to some help from the AK community), which uses 7591's. Not quite EL34's but may be something if looking for an integrated with a little more power than EL84's or 7189's?

 

[Lavane]

I can see the iron getting heavy pretty fast, especially as you move up, that's a good point to remember for sure.

Since I am currently running Forte iv's and will likely only run efficient speakers in this set up, and since it's a smallish - 14+17 room speakers 10' apart and 9' from the listening position, big watts are not a big concern.

I bet at normal listening levels we typically don't break a watt! That does not mean I don't like volume when we want it or appreciate the additional headroom and control a bit more power brings to the table.

For reference, a friend put his Decware Zen anniversary (2wpc) in for a little over a week while waiting for some things to show up and I thought for a minute that this was easily doable. In the end I ended up thinking I would need monos (6wpc) of the smaller decwares to be happy or one of their larger stereo amps and I really do need an integrated in this position.

I'll look into the Cronus, I've heard good things about Rogue in general and I typically like American when I can get it.

I came very close to buying an Atlas Magnum from Rogue. It's the power amp version of the Cronus Magnum. The company seems to have great support and the prices are very competitive. I really liked some of the features like a built in bias meter and adjustable bias for each output tube. You could get away with something like a 300B SET with those speakers though. The 300B sounds great with some music. The 300B I have does start to sound conjested with more complicated music though, like with full orchestra music. It does great with vocals, instrumental, Jazz, etc. Personally I prefer single ended pentode amps to direct heated triodes since they tend to play everything well. But that's just me.

 

[BigRiver]

Why are you searching for a more powerful amplifier when you have Klipsch Forte speakers? Your complaints regarding the Sherwood seem to center on midrange sonics, not a lack of power. And throwing Chinese amps with 2nd rate iron into the picture really confuses me. I think you're probably in need of a good 300B SET with a volume control, but that's not actually an integrated amp. Despite the new definition promoted by millennial marketers, an integrated amp has at least an input selector, gain control and tone controls. I don't recall ever seeing anything like that from a quality Western manufacturer, so you might be out of luck on that score. The bottom line here is that the improvement in speed and definition you're describing will require a SET, and at some point you're going to have to decide which is more important - sonics or utility.

Jack

Hi Jack,

Thanks for this response! I am not looking for more power, if any of my posts came across that way it was by mistake.

You are right in that I do not see many true integrated amps (leaning on your definition above) coming from Western manufacturers. I am not reliant on tone controls, though when implemented properly they can be handy, especially when there is an option to remove them from the circuit all together.

I guess I was hoping for input/experiences on EL34 integrated amps that have input selectors, gain control and preferably an active pre-amp. Tone controls and a good phono could be considered a bonus. I know that something like the Linear Tube Audio Z40+ hits the mark pretty much on the head, however the price tag puts it out of reach.

I am gravitating towards el34's because of the tube options available both NOSn XF2's etc. and current production (both Psvane EL34-PH and the Sophia Electric versions that although Chinese have very good all around reviews), and the fact that they are considered a mid range focused tube that can be implemented in both a PP and SET design.

I have looked at various 300B set designs (a well as 845, etc.) described as integrated based on the definition of multiple inputs, selector, and gain control. In this category I find myself looking at examples that are well beyond the budget of this set up. Mastersound, Raven Audio, and the like.

I am really looking to balance sonics with utility in this set up, one reason the Forte iv's are in this set up. You don't think there is a middle ground to be had?

 

[BigRiver]

I came very close to buying an Atlas Magnum from Rogue. It's the power amp version of the Cronus Magnum. The company seems to have great support and the prices are very competitive. I really liked some of the features like a built in bias meter and adjustable bias for each output tube. You could get away with something like a 300B SET with those speakers though. The 300B sounds great with some music. The 300B I have does start to sound conjested with more complicated music though, like with full orchestra music. It does great with vocals, instrumental, Jazz, etc. Personally I prefer single ended pentode amps to direct heated triodes since they tend to play everything well. But that's just me.

Would you have any examples of single ended pentodes that you have tried and or seriously considered? I know this may stray from the EL34 tube.

Since I listen to a very wide variety of music (bluegrass, jam, jazz, jamgrass, blues, orchestral, rock, Dead, vocal, acoustic, etc, etc.) and also use this set up to stream live concerts nugsnet, livephish and the like. I am gravitating away from the 300b set design because of its potential limitations on both ends of the spectrum and again, the cost for a good one.

Thanks!

 

[BigRiver]

I really love my HH Scott 299 for midrange clarity and paired with my Klipsch speakers, for both streaming and vinyl. I'm also trying to revive a 299D (thanks to some help from the AK community), which uses 7591's. Not quite EL34's but may be something if looking for an integrated with a little more power than EL84's or 7189's?

I have beard nothing but good things about the 299D. I have the vintage integrated going now and think I would like to try something manufactured in the past few decades if possible. That said if a 299D fell in my lap I would definitely bring it home!

 

[Lavane]

Would you have any examples of single ended pentodes that you have tried and or seriously considered? I know this may stray from the EL34 tube.

Since I listen to a very wide variety of music (bluegrass, jam, jazz, jamgrass, blues, orchestral, rock, Dead, vocal, acoustic, etc, etc.) and also use this set up to stream live concerts nugsnet, livephish and the like. I am gravitating away from the 300b set design because of its potential limitations on both ends of the spectrum and again, the cost for a good one.

Thanks!

Depending on the design and iron used, a 300B can have good extention. But midrange is where it really shines. I've heard a few single ended pentode amps, a KT-88 and 6L6 SE so far. The KT-88 had more punch and detail. The only single ended amp I own so far is one I built using TV sweep tubes. Driver and pentode output in one bottle. It's only 5wpc, but gets more use than the 300B. And cost way less to build compared to the 300B. An EL-34 should make for a nice single ended amplifier though.

 

[RickB]

The Rogue Chronus Magnum III is one of the best integrated amps I have ever heard, even compared to such exotica as Jadis.

​

It can be switched into triode mode that's really pretty sublime.
Replacing the input tube with NOS makes a big difference, and for the price, built in phono stage, remote control, sound and build quality, it's what I would personally buy.

BUT only the Magnum III...whatever Rogue did between the II & the III took the amp to another level.

Audio Research has the new I50 that can be equipped with a phono module. Expensive? Maybe, but great quality, name recognition for secondary market purposes, and excellent factory support.

One of the sweetest integrateds I ever heard was the GRAAF Venticinque, 25 watts Class A tube, full function and just a great sounding piece of gear...long out of production now, though.

Jolida makes nice integrateds, but you would have to have an external phono stage.
Antique Sound Labs made nice integrateds, but no built-in phono, but they have quit the business.

Just my thoughts
.

 

[TriodeLuvr]

Hi Jack,

Thanks for this response! I am not looking for more power, if any of my posts came across that way it was by mistake.

You are right in that I do not see many true integrated amps (leaning on your definition above) coming from Western manufacturers. I am not reliant on tone controls, though when implemented properly they can be handy, especially when there is an option to remove them from the circuit all together.

I guess I was hoping for input/experiences on EL34 integrated amps that have input selectors, gain control and preferably an active pre-amp. Tone controls and a good phono could be considered a bonus. I know that something like the Linear Tube Audio Z40+ hits the mark pretty much on the head, however the price tag puts it out of reach.

I am gravitating towards el34's because of the tube options available both NOSn XF2's etc. and current production (both Psvane EL34-PH and the Sophia Electric versions that although Chinese have very good all around reviews), and the fact that they are considered a mid range focused tube that can be implemented in both a PP and SET design.

I have looked at various 300B set designs (a well as 845, etc.) described as integrated based on the definition of multiple inputs, selector, and gain control. In this category I find myself looking at examples that are well beyond the budget of this set up. Mastersound, Raven Audio, and the like.

I am really looking to balance sonics with utility in this set up, one reason the Forte iv's are in this set up. You don't think there is a middle ground to be had?

Well, before continuing on regarding the fundamental qualities of various amplifiers, it might be useful to know more precisely what the cause is for what you're hearing. For example, is this a nuanced attribute, similar to differences that one might hear with various brands of tubes or coupling caps? Or is it a not-so-subtle frequency response anomaly of the amplifier? Signals in the Sherwood pass through the tone controls regardless of source, and those particular controls are often not flat when set to center. If you haven't performed a swept response test of this amplifier using one of the high-level inputs, that should be the next step.

Jack

 

[trainbuftony]

It's never a bad idea to verify with instruments what you're hearing with your "meat microphones"
Could be an electrical thing or could be in your head, or in your room...

 

[BigRiver]

It's never a bad idea to verify with instruments what you're hearing with your "meat microphones"
Could be an electrical thing or could be in your head, or in your room...

I think that you guys are right in that testing would reveal or refute what I am hearing, or telling myself I am hearing.

But then I always think, if I am hearing it it exists and either I like it or not.

I feel like I have ruled out the actual functioning of the amplifier as it was literally just tested, serviced and biased. It is unlikely, based on the service, that things are awry electronically, etc. -As mentioned earlier aeaaudio.com did a "frame off" restoration that included some pretty great upgrades. Overall the sound is very good, it easily bested a rebuilt Fisher 500C, a Scott 299 and a Sherwood S5000 II with my current components.

However after an experience with a little Decware and a First Watt SIT 3, I noticed the tonal separations (especially in the mid bass) on more complicated passages as well as the overall agility was just not there. In addition, I noticed the noise floor a whole lot more than with these other newer amps, which should be expected IMO. IN my experience even the best vintage tube gear is never silent.

 

[BigRiver]

The Rogue Chronus Magnum III is one of the best integrated amps I have ever heard, even compared to such exotica as Jadis.

​

It can be switched into triode mode that's really pretty sublime.
Replacing the input tube with NOS makes a big difference, and for the price, built in phono stage, remote control, sound and build quality, it's what I would personally buy.

BUT only the Magnum III...whatever Rogue did between the II & the III took the amp to another level.

Audio Research has the new I50 that can be equipped with a phono module. Expensive? Maybe, but great quality, name recognition for secondary market purposes, and excellent factory support.

One of the sweetest integrateds I ever heard was the GRAAF Venticinque, 25 watts Class A tube, full function and just a great sounding piece of gear...long out of production now, though.

Jolida makes nice integrateds, but you would have to have an external phono stage.
Antique Sound Labs made nice integrateds, but no built-in phono, but they have quit the business.

Just my thoughts
.

I have not heard a lot about the III. I have read a lot about the others and it always ends with, "it was a pretty good intro to tubes, but my new XXX is fantastic in comparison." I will definitely look in to the III.

I have see that AR I50 and it is cool looking, and a good name but IDK, there's just something (besides the fact that I would have to buy new and it's out of this price range) that is keeping me from seriously considering.

An external phono stage is not the end of the world.

 

[lightcapture]

I'm using a Mystere IA-11 40wpc EL34 integrated amp made by PrimaLuna paired w/ Klipsch Forte speakers and it has a wonderful sound w/ clarity and tight deep bass. I've used this amp w/ other speakers and it impresses me with its PRaT almost with SS-like quickness with a warm midrange. This amp is designed to run the power tubes in Pentode instead of UL or Triode. The preamp tubes are 6SN7 and the only other company I know of that uses them is Cary Audio, though there may be others. They are had to find though.

 

[TriodeLuvr]

I think that you guys are right in that testing would reveal or refute what I am hearing, or telling myself I am hearing.

But then I always think, if I am hearing it it exists and either I like it or not.

I feel like I have ruled out the actual functioning of the amplifier as it was literally just tested, serviced and biased. It is unlikely, based on the service, that things are awry electronically, etc. -As mentioned earlier aeaaudio.com did a "frame off" restoration that included some pretty great upgrades. Overall the sound is very good, it easily bested a rebuilt Fisher 500C, a Scott 299 and a Sherwood S5000 II with my current components.

However after an experience with a little Decware and a First Watt SIT 3, I noticed the tonal separations (especially in the mid bass) on more complicated passages as well as the overall agility was just not there. In addition, I noticed the noise floor a whole lot more than with these other newer amps, which should be expected IMO. IN my experience even the best vintage tube gear is never silent.

Servicing an amp is generally unrelated to the potential response aberrations created by tone control design. Unless you told them to custom flatten the response, and unless the response was really horrendous (which would be indicative of a component defect), service shops don't pay much attention to the vagaries of tone controls in tube amplifiers. I've sold several vintage amps due to this exact problem. What you pointed out about the ability to switch out the controls is a necessity in my opinion, but it's a feature that's lacking in all the older gear. Anyway, if you don't test for this, you simply won't know what you're up against.

Jack

 

[BigRiver]

I'm using a Mystere IA-11 40wpc EL34 integrated amp made by PrimaLuna paired w/ Klipsch Forte speakers and it has a wonderful sound w/ clarity and tight deep bass. I've used this amp w/ other speakers and it impresses me with its PRaT almost with SS-like quickness with a warm midrange. This amp is designed to run the power tubes in Pentode instead of UL or Triode. The preamp tubes are 6SN7 and the only other company I know of that uses them is Cary Audio, though there may be others. They are had to find though.
View attachment 2418387
View attachment 2418393

That's a real BEAUTY! Thank you for sharing those pictures. Although I have not had a lot of experience with 6sn7's the little bit I have heard has been very good. A friend had (and maybe still has) a cary spl-05 and I know Don Sachs uses then in his Valhalla integrated as well as his line stage - both of which are really hard to get and get rave reviews.

I'm definitely going to look in to this amp, despite the (somewhat) accepted bias towards Chinese products, there are some very fine product lines coming out. I have seriously considered Line Magnetic as well.

 

[BigRiver]

Servicing an amp is generally unrelated to the potential response aberrations created by tone control design. Unless you told them to custom flatten the response, and unless the response was really horrendous (which would be indicative of a component defect), service shops don't pay much attention to the vagaries of tone controls in tube amplifiers. I've sold several vintage amps due to this exact problem. What you pointed out about the ability to switch out the controls is a necessity in my opinion, but it's a feature that's lacking in all the older gear. Anyway, if you don't test for this, you simply won't know what you're up against.

Jack

You know, I am very curious about his now and am definitely going to ask if the tone controls are addressed and if so how.

I would feel confident in saying that is particular amp was not really serviced by a service shop, rather a specialty shop that focuses very seriously and only on vintage tube (mostly integrated) restorations and modifications. Their passion seems to be Fisher, however they have done many. many Sherwoods, Scotts, and the like.

Sending that email now.

I appreciate your insight on this as it is not something that I and probably most even think about addressing.

 

[RickB]

I spent some time today listening to the new AR I50 integrated, very good even before break in, will keep going over to listen to it over the next several weeks to see how it fares...