Elac B5/B6

[PR Audio]

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.

The point I was trying to make is that any time a reasonably priced product starts getting a lot of acclaim/press/whatever because of it's price point, it's generally for what it CAN DO at that price point, I see people who purchase it and then start saying "I don't get it," "I'm not impressed," "Overrated" etc... Just because a well designed and executed pair of speakers became accessible to a lot more people cause of price, doesn't make everyone's opinion valid. I appreciate that everyone wants to put in their 2-cents... but I just want it to be clear that not everyone is giving every piece a fair shake. I take peoples opinions pretty seriously, but only with careful consideration. If they don't mention associated gear, room details, or what their references are, you bet I'll disregard a negative review.

Again, in my opinion, what makes what Andrew Jones is doing/has done, both at Pioneer and now with Elac, special is that he is bringing a product with a higher-end pedigree down to an everyman price. The problem is that these types of higher end products aren't as forgiving to associated gear. Their honesty a lot of times shows the lackluster quality of what they are hooked to. This to me is one of the earmarks of upscale components. Their honesty can also be very rewarding when they are hooked up to other premium products.

If someone can spend $280 for speakers, than they can probably save up a little bit (people don't seem to know how to save for something anymore,) sell off a vintage receiver or two and easily pickup something like a Yamaha A-S*01 integrated, a Brio-R, etc... I have purchased two Brio-R's both for under $500.

- Woody

Yes, I agree...I guess one hears/reads so many things about them, lot of hype by the press and many users, that when you encounter them your expectations are above what those speakers can do. Most of the time those expectations we have are unreasonable and unjust, taking in consideration their price point, which if you take manufacturing costs it is probably 1/3 or 1/4 off their suggested retail price. I think the same goes for uber-expensive speakers, one hears how excellent they are, then you see the $50K/pair price tag, and then you hear them with expectations they have to be perfect, and then realize that they sound pretty much the same as those PSB Synchrony One with the $4K/pair price tag; one tends to not hear those subtle differences that make that $50K/pair more enjoyable, including their looks, just because of expectations.

 

[Darksyde]

I get that "system synergy " . It's exactly what I what I wanted ,unfortunately I don't have a dedicated listening room so I make due with the space I have . Although I'm happy with the sound the Elacs put out , I'm still on the hunt for something better ....vintage maybe ?

 

[MCM_Fan]

I agree with the comments about placing the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers on good stands a ways out from the back wall - as in sand-filled metal stands about 18" - 24" from the back wall. It makes a significant improvement in their sound. My only problem is my tallest sand-fillable stands are only 24" tall. For my listening position, I need something 4" - 5" taller. I'm working on it. If you've only heard these at Best Buy (or similar) packed in on a shelf among other speakers, you haven't heard them at their best.

I have also modified three pairs of these speakers per Dennis Murphy's mods (better tweeter, better crossover and better dampening of the enclosures). These mods take these inexpensive speakers to another level. And, since I bought these when they were on sale at ridiculous prices, my total out-of-pocket works out to $130/pair - the normal retail price for unmodified speakers. I must say, with modifications, they sound pretty nice for a pair of $130 speakers. I don't claim to have golden ears, but music is part of my daily life and I spend several hours a day listening to a variety of music on several different systems.

I have also listened to them with a lot of different electronics and sources over the last two years. I haven't tried them with any inexpensive, modern receivers (or even any inexpensive vintage receivers). I've used a couple different Sony ES SACD players, a B&O Beogram 3400 turntable and couple different high end FM tuners (Sansui TU-919 and Magnum Dynalab FT-101A) and a Mac Mini playing through a Cambridge DACMagic 100. For amplification, I've used an NAD 3150, a Yamaha A-1000 (both have very good phono sections - especially the Yamaha) and a GAS Son of Ampzilla paired with an Acurus R10 preamp. I am currently playing around with VERY inexpensive/DIY system that consists of a Sony PS1 as source ($9.99 at Goodwill), with a TPA3116 chip amplifier and an inexpensive Chinese made 6N3 tube preamplifier. I modified both the TPA3116 and the tube preamp with better quality components, but even with these very inexpensive electronics, these modified Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers sound very nice when placed well out from the back wall on a good set of sand-filled stands. Although, I'm sure they'd sound excellent with higher end electronics than I have access to systems synergy goes a long way to making them pleasant to listen to.

For example, in my experience the TPA3116 amps I've built REALLY need a preamp to sound acceptable. I tried driving the amp directly from the DAC and using the computer to control the volume through software and that combination did not sound good at all to my ears (in a word - YUCK). I first used the preamp section of the NAD3150, then the Acurus R10 (now we're getting somewhere) and finally, the inexpensive Chinese tube preamp.

In any case, I'm not saying they are the best thing out there (I have other, better sounding speakers - but they are bigger speakers that cost considerably more), but they are excellent for the money - when properly set up, especially with the Dennis Murphy mods. That said, I'd LOVE to hear a direct A/B/C/D comparison between the modified Pioneers, the Elac B5/B6 and the new version of the Affordable Accuracy Monitors from Dennis Murphy. I'd do it myself, but I already have more pairs of small stand mount speakers than I need. I keep giving them to my kids, my girlfriend, etc. and I still have more than I need. And, in spite of my personal surplus of competing products, I could not be more thrilled that talented designers like Andrew Jones and Dennis Murphy keep pumping out excellent sounding, affordable speakers. It gets more people interested in quality audio, especially young people who have previously only heard compressed music played through jawbone speakers. Anything that gets people interested in our "hobby" benefits us all - a rising tide lifts all boats.

 

[Darksyde]

I just put some Sorbothane Hemisphere 1 inch pads under my Elacs . Don't know if it's a placebo effect but to me ,the sound has improved immensely . Bass is tight and the soundstage is more detailed . I'll report back in a few days ......

 

[MCM_Fan]

I get that "system synergy " . It's exactly what I what I wanted ,unfortunately I don't have a dedicated listening room so I make due with the space I have . Although I'm happy with the sound the Elacs put out , I'm still on the hunt for something better ....vintage maybe ?

The problem will be finding something vintage that sounds better that doesn't take up even more space than your Elacs. For example, I recently picked up a pair of vintage KEF 104/2 speakers for $250. One of my winter projects will be replacing the foam donuts on the woofers and the ferrofluid in the tweeters. After spending about $50 on materials and a few hours of my time, I have no doubt these will sound better than any pair of new speakers you could get for comparable money, but these are big speakers that need room to breathe. I also have a pair of Dynaco A25s that I recapped in the guest bedroom system. They sound decent, but I like the unrestored KEFs (which will only get better) and the modified Pioneers better - and they are also bigger than the Elacs (but not by that much). It would be fun to do a blind A/B comparison between the restored Dynacos and the Elacs.

 

[Darksyde]

I was thinking Jbl L20t ...something along those lines.

 

[PR Audio]

I agree with the comments about placing the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers on good stands a ways out from the back wall - as in sand-filled metal stands about 18" - 24" from the back wall. It makes a significant improvement in their sound. My only problem is my tallest sand-fillable stands are only 24" tall. For my listening position, I need something 4" - 5" taller. I'm working on it. If you've only heard these at Best Buy (or similar) packed in on a shelf among other speakers, you haven't heard them at their best.

I have also modified three pairs of these speakers per Dennis Murphy's mods (better tweeter, better crossover and better dampening of the enclosures). These mods take these inexpensive speakers to another level. And, since I bought these when they were on sale at ridiculous prices, my total out-of-pocket works out to $130/pair - the normal retail price for unmodified speakers. I must say, with modifications, they sound pretty nice for a pair of $130 speakers. I don't claim to have golden ears, but music is part of my daily life and I spend several hours a day listening to a variety of music on several different systems.

I have also listened to them with a lot of different electronics and sources over the last two years. I haven't tried them with any inexpensive, modern receivers (or even any inexpensive vintage receivers). I've used a couple different Sony ES SACD players, a B&O Beogram 3400 turntable and couple different high end FM tuners (Sansui TU-919 and Magnum Dynalab FT-101A) and a Mac Mini playing through a Cambridge DACMagic 100. For amplification, I've used an NAD 3150, a Yamaha A-1000 (both have very good phono sections - especially the Yamaha) and a GAS Son of Ampzilla paired with an Acurus R10 preamp. I am currently playing around with VERY inexpensive/DIY system that consists of a Sony PS1 as source ($9.99 at Goodwill), with a TPA3116 chip amplifier and an inexpensive Chinese made 6N3 tube preamplifier. I modified both the TPA3116 and the tube preamp with better quality components, but even with these very inexpensive electronics, these modified Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers sound very nice when placed well out from the back wall on a good set of sand-filled stands. Although, I'm sure they'd sound excellent with higher end electronics than I have access to systems synergy goes a long way to making them pleasant to listen to.

For example, in my experience the TPA3116 amps I've built REALLY need a preamp to sound acceptable. I tried driving the amp directly from the DAC and using the computer to control the volume through software and that combination did not sound good at all to my ears (in a word - YUCK). I first used the preamp section of the NAD3150, then the Acurus R10 (now we're getting somewhere) and finally, the inexpensive Chinese tube preamp.

In any case, I'm not saying they are the best thing out there (I have other, better sounding speakers - but they are bigger speakers that cost considerably more), but they are excellent for the money - when properly set up, especially with the Dennis Murphy mods. That said, I'd LOVE to hear a direct A/B/C/D comparison between the modified Pioneers, the Elac B5/B6 and the new version of the Affordable Accuracy Monitors from Dennis Murphy. I'd do it myself, but I already have more pairs of small stand mount speakers than I need. I keep giving them to my kids, my girlfriend, etc. and I still have more than I need. And, in spite of my personal surplus of competing products, I could not be more thrilled that talented designers like Andrew Jones and Dennis Murphy keep pumping out excellent sounding, affordable speakers. It gets more people interested in quality audio, especially young people who have previously only heard compressed music played through jawbone speakers. Anything that gets people interested in our "hobby" benefits us all - a rising tide lifts all boats.

This is very nice, I like when people have a different point of view and/or experience, and back it up with useful information. Wonder how long will it take DM to start tinkering with the Elac.

 

[Darksyde]

Danny Ritchie over at Audiocircle has modded the Elacs . Seems like Andrew Jones wasn't too pleased .

 

[wim1983]

I'm also interesting about the Elac Debut B6 bookshelf speakers, recently I've been revisited the classic Wharfedale Diamond 9.1, I'm a bit surprised and can't believe how great it sound, even more so than the Denton 80th and Diamond 122. It would be good if there is a faithful and thorough comparisons between these budget friendly speakers with more combinations of gears and matching, frankly I can say that I'm not totally satisfied with my current Denton and Diamond 122, i.e. not perfect speakers, but the Diamond 9.1 maybe soon to be my favourite perfect speakers, yet to be confirmed after fixed, just noticed the drivers are very good, and according to info, there are several batch of different productions with different driver quality, hmm...

 

[MCM_Fan]

Danny Ritchie over at Audiocircle has modded the Elacs . Seems like Andrew Jones wasn't too pleased .

Although there was some disagreement in that discussion, it seemed Danny and Andrew remained respectful and amicable. I do question the ROI on Danny's Level 2 Mods. The kit costs $290 - more than the cost of the speakers. The combined cost is $569.99, you void the warranty and end up with a rather hideous looking pair of speakers that cost almost $600. That kind of defeats the appeal of the Elacs. I have to think there are other options in the $600 price range that will sound every bit as good, perhaps better, and definitely look better and come with an intact warranty (something like the Dali Zensor 3 or new Magnepan MMGs to name just two possibilities).

And, since the warranty is void after the mods, you should also compare the modded Elacs to used and DIY kit speakers in the $600 price range. Lots and lots of options (heck, you can get a pair of fully restored, mirror image Dahlquist DQ10s, with the DQ-1W subwoofer and crossover for that kind of money).

At least with the Dennis Murphy mods to the Andrew Jones Pioneer SP-BS-22-LR speakers, I kept my cost inline with the normal retail price of the speakers ($130/pair). I did so by purchasing the stock speakers at ridiculous sale prices ($79.99 and $65.00 - no shipping and no sales tax) and buying enough of parts to mod four speakers when Parts Express was running a 20% off sale.

Unless the Elacs go on sale at similar cut rate prices and Danny Ritchie offers quantity discounts on his Level 2 kits, I can't see it being worth the cost and effort. Just my opinion, but if I was spending $600 on a pair of speakers, I could do better. As mentioned previously in this thread, I will have about half that in a pair of truly excellent sounding, restored KEF 104/2 speakers. Heck at the end of the day, I'll have les than that in the restored KEFs and my two pair of modified SP-BS22-LRs. That's enough speakers for the main system (the KEFs), the master bedroom (one set of modified SP-BS22-LRs) and the guest bedroom (the other set of modified SP-BS22-LRs). I love to tinker and mod as much as anyone, but at some point, you need to get a good return on your investment, in both money and time spent, to make it worthwhile.

 

[MCM_Fan]

I'm also interesting about the Elac Debut B6 bookshelf speakers, recently I've been revisited the classic Wharfedale Diamond 9.1, I'm a bit surprised and can't believe how great it sound, even more so than the Denton 80th and Diamond 122. It would be good if there is a faithful and thorough comparisons between these budget friendly speakers with more combinations of gears and matching, frankly I can say that I'm not totally satisfied with my current Denton and Diamond 122, i.e. not perfect speakers, but the Diamond 9.1 maybe soon to be my favourite perfect speakers, yet to be confirmed after fixed, just noticed the drivers are very good, and according to info, there are several batch of different productions with different driver quality, hmm...

I'd actually like to hear how the Elacs (and my modded Pioneers) stack up to the Wharfedale Diamond 10.1s as they are also in the sub-$300/pair stand mount category.

 

[Darksyde]

You can get a decent set of vintage speakers for that kind of money . I'd rather mod or restore a well built set of vintage speakers than spend 290 bucks and wind up with an ugly set of speaker which may or may not sound better . I added the sorbothane pads to my Elacs but that's as far as I'll go . I'll enjoy them for now till I set my mind as to what I really want .

 

[MCM_Fan]

You can get a decent set of vintage speakers for that kind of money . I'd rather mod or restore a well built set of vintage speakers than spend 290 bucks and wind up with an ugly set of speaker which may or may not sound better . I added the sorbothane pads to my Elacs but that's as far as I'll go . I'll enjoy them for now till I set my mind as to what I really want .

Agreed! Yes, the measurements Danny provides look a tiny bit better with the trim rings removed, but I wonder if the difference is enough to be audible. I can say, from personal experience, the Dennis Murphy Pioneer mods make the speakers sound very noticeably better. I did a direct A/B blind comparison between the modded and unmodded versions before modding the second pair. Even without that comparison, the improvement is obvious. Too bad they don't also make them look better (at least they don't look worse). I'm thinking about stripping the cabinets and applying some real wood veneer this winter. These are small speakers. So, the cost of the veneer will be negligible. The real cost will be my time.

And, I also have the KEFs to restore, some speaker stands to build, etc.

 

[Darksyde]

Wood veneer would probably dampen vibrations too , so it would be a win win for you. Post pics when you're done

 

[PR Audio]

...The kit costs $290 - more than the cost of the speakers. The combined cost is $569.99, you void the warranty and end up with a rather hideous looking pair of speakers that cost almost $600. That kind of defeats the appeal of the Elacs. I have to think there are other options in the $600 price range that will sound every bit as good, perhaps better, and definitely look better and come with an intact warranty (something like the Dali Zensor 3 or new Magnepan MMGs to name just two possibilities)...

I fully agree!!! For $600.00 there are much better options out there in the used and new market. And much prettier!!!

I had forgotten about this Nice Speaker, which you will not see recommended often, because people don't know it well. It is the new Ref series from Infinity, and it is overlooked often for being a new Infinity and its cheap price. A fellow AK'er directed me to them when I mentioned the Revel Performa3 M106(5) was not within my budget at the moment, but it was the best speaker I had heard so far that was attainable to me.

The Ref series is based on the Revel Performa3 Series, which is in my personal Top 3 speaker series. Revel, being an HK company, shared their engineering and R&D work done for the Performa3 with Infinity, coming out with an inexpensive speaker that sounds close to the magic of the Revel's, and according to most reviewers surpass the performance level of most $1K or less speakers.

Here is an interesting review for the R152.

 

[Darksyde]

Those remind me of these ..JBL ES 30

 

[protonot]

I bought the B6 at the amazing price of 230 dollars from amazon - it was the same price as B5 (maybe a mistake ?). In the beginning they sounded very muffled. Gradually after 30 hours or so of playing they are much better. I really enjoy their bass but the mid and high range is very muffled or weak. There is no musical depth and dynamics - (my amp is the onkyo tx 8020 but i cant afford something more powerful). I do not know if i should wait more but i think most of the improvement has already happened. I also checked the diamond 10.2 and i was immediately very happy with them - i can t say if they were already broken in by somebody else but they are improving even more over time and i really like their sound. They have clearer highs and mid. Unfortunately not so strong bass as in elacs but i guess i cannot have everything. I think i will keep the 10.2 and return the b6. I could not set the elacs sound fine even with equalizer for all types of inputs and songs. While the 10.2 sound very nice almost always without fine tuning and careful positioning. I think the tweeter in the elacs is buried inside and therefore makes them very directional. You feel the bass in the B6 but you just hear it with the 10.2. I will miss that. I hope burning in will free some more bass power. What do people think about the diamond 225? they are more expensive than the 10.2 but with similar specs. Should i consider them as well? Are they going to improve the deep end of the 10.2? I am actually tempted to keep one speaker of the b6 and one of the 10.2 and return the other two - so i can have the bass and high of the best of the two.

 

[Fomoco1649]

At their price point , the Elacs are good speakers maybe great speakers. I've been enjoying my Elacs for a month now . I tamed the bass somewhat with a piece of packing foam about 5 inches behind the port . I think they have a rich warm sound especially when listening to latin jazz . Build quality is ok but would have been better if thicker mdf was used ( cabinet vibrates ) . This my opinion .

You get what you pay for...I've always been satisfied with older vintage Polks, Klipsch., Infinitys.....

 

[Fomoco1649]

View attachment 641796
I have around 25 plus hours on the Elac B6's right now and just to get the negatives out of the way. I don't like the metal grill over the tweeter. The cabinet, side walls, top, especially the back panel does vibrate with bass notes, even small bass notes. The speaker weights @ 15 pounds and to hit a price point, I'm guessing the cabinet was designed to be light to save money. If this speaker's weight was 25 to 30 pounds, you would guess it to be 3 times(?) the cost after looking over the finish and a quick demo. The first hours, maybe close to 20, the speaker was less than impressive on any level. I don't know if it was a system / power issue or break end time as some don't believe in that, but the speaker has opened up and is beginning to sound much, much better with time.

Just a quick reference, I have compared the Pioneer BS 22, ( $129 ) the very good Goldenear Aon 3 ( $1k ) to the Elac B6"s ($279 delivered) this week. During one demo, I also invited my "audiophile" brother who is really into high end to be a extra set of ears.

The following is just my opinion:
The B6's are just a tad strong on the bass area and required me to bring out the speaker's front 28+ inches from the back wall or it would sound muddy / slow. When set up at that distance, they are still very dynamic. They will project power like a floor stander with ease. The speaker's sound stage is more behind the speaker than in front and it does this fairly well.
Comparing the B6's to the Pioneer BS 22 didn't take but a very few minutes as the BS 22 are out classed in every area. I also own the Pioneer FS 52 and I plan to compare them at a later date as their prices are almost the same.

I did play the Goldenear Aon 3's back to back against the Elac B6's and these are my thoughts:

The Elac's don't have the "air" in the top end frequency that the Aon 3 have. *B6's tweeter is a little rolled off compared to the Aon 3's. But the B6 never sounded unbalanced.
The mid range, (horns, voice detail, strings ) was cleaner in the Aon 3. That was the biggest difference between these two speakers. I could notice the mid range detail as it seemed more clear or something on the Aon 3. It was something I picked up after the second switch from the Aon 3's to the Elac B6's.

**When playing the CD, Showcase Eiji Oue (Minnesota Orchestra) A Reference Recordings with large dynamics:
The Elac's have power that can match the Aon 3. The Aon 3 will play just a little louder without losing it's composure before the Elac but up to that point, the Elac sound just a bit larger. This may be based on the fact that the Elac's have a rear firing port and the Aon 3's have 2 side firing passive radiators. The Elac's are a bit less clean in the lower range but it tends to have no problem matching or in some cases bettering, the large dynamic peaks and low bass impact of the Aon 3.
They both project nearly the same soundstage as I couldn't really tell a difference.
To me, the Aon 3 sound better / more full are lower volumes. When both are getting "taxed", they start to get close.
The Aon 3's do not sound good on anything other than well recorded music where the Elac's, somehow, do not have this same problem.
The Elac's, have to be out from a rear wall to sound clean. On my system, the Elac's tweeter is slightly rolled off and having them too close to the back wall make the speaker sound dry.
When set up right, the Elac's and Aon 3 were close enough where one might like to compare them more than one time to hear a difference. The Aon 3 is cleaner sounding and I did like the Aon 3's better after the comparing the two.
The Aon 3's 7" woofer driver and ribbon tweeter is the most coherent bookshelf I can remember hearing. The Elac B6 shouldn't even be close in this area. At 13.5 feet away from the listening area, they both are very good.
The comparison to the Aon 3 isn't something that I thought would be this close. The Aon 3 is suppose to be a great deal in the $1k class of speakers but I would expect most people wouldn't hear a more than $700 difference.

Final thought on the Elac B6's:
I do not design speakers and I understand that Elac had to cut corners somewhere to make a profit, but I wonder if the mid-range, lower mid-range freq. suffer from the cabinet design. If I was to brace this cabinet and line the walls with something, would the B6's give the Goldenear Aon 3's and other speakers in the $1k class a very serious run? For $279, could you buy a better speaker on the used market? I guess, if you knew what you were looking for. If this speaker had a better cabinet, I don't know you could. Certainly a speaker kit without the cabinet for $279, would get you a better dollar performance ratio as these drivers couldn't have cost much more than $25 to $30 each. But with a speaker, delivered to your door, already built and ready to play for that price is really crazy. I actually purchased the Pioneer (A.J. designs) in the past and kind of had an idea on what to expect from a "cost effective project". The Elac B6's isn't at all what I had expected!
I am impressed what Elac Audio has done with a design from Andrew Jones. In the past, I have heard people say they wish, Andrew Jones would design something to go after the Kef LS50 in a cost effective package that everyone could afford. Maybe he already has...........

I just ordered a clean used pair just out of curiosity….I also Like the Idea of a braced cabinet but other than that it sounds Like they did a great job….

 

[Fomoco1649]

I have a pair of Snell Kll speakers from 90s & they have a 7 inch woofer with high quality braced solid cabinets ….but cost much more but worth it