Electric Bikes

[sKiZo]

First off, don't EVEN accuse me of being green ... <G>

More like lazy, and gettin' on old. Well, older.

Almost ready to park my trusty old mountain bike and trade up(?) to an electric bicycle. Seems to be a few of those showing up on the linear trails here lately, usually about when I'm peddling uphill and my knees are starting to bark.So, did some digging, and I'm almost ready to talk myself into one of these ...

It's a fat tire, so it'd be great for stretching the riding season up here in the Big White, and it's got everything I'd probably want. They do offer an accessory rack and fenders as well. $1500 shipped. Five levels of "pedal assist" so you can set the effort with a push of a button. It's got full lighting installed, disk brakes (cabled), locking damped front suspension, and a decent Shimano drivetrain.

https://www.radpowerbikes.com/products/radrover-electric-fat-bike?variant=1121017969

Being a cheapskate at heart, I looked into retrofit kits for standard bikes, but by the time you get a decent one, with the battery and charger, you're looking at almost as much as just buying one built and ready to roll.

$500 - Fat tire bike with suspension forks
$750 - Bafang electric conversion kit
$400 - 48v 750 watt 12ah li-on battery
$100 - lighting/accessory kit

Total of $1750 ... all of a sudden, that $1500 doesn't sound so bad!

Any other users? Suggestions? Comments? Belly laughs?

 

[Wildcat]

I like riding a "regular" bike, but there are times when I've gone just a little too far that I wish I had some sort of assist. Some help getting up hills would be nice also. The drawback, though, is that I would be pedaling a much heavier bike, so the assist would probably be used for most of the ride.

I've read that conversion kits really aren't so great (and those conversions with the mini gasoline engines are completely unsafe), but a purpose-built electric aka "hybrid" bike (pedal assist) are where its at, albeit a lot more expensive. I primarily ride Specialized, and they offer the Turbo line, with the entry price being $2500 currently. Giant's entry level e-bike is $3000, and Trek's is $2800 (with their battery pack looking very "aftermarket"). I would check the cycling forums just to see how your choice stacks up reliability-wise. From what I have read of the bikes I mentioned, they all have their individual quirks--it is still early in the game. But it's a neat idea. It would be nice for the lady of the house to have one, just so she could accompany me on those long rides without her getting exhausted.

 

[Scifi]

A gasoline powered moped would have more range. Batteries tend to drain over time even when not in use. I never had either type of bike, only pedal powered. My old Schwinn Stingray tended to give me knee pain, but not ten speeds, I think because the seat is higher on the ten speed. Are there electric bikes with regenerative braking?

 

[Wildcat]

No idea on the regenerative braking--at these price levels, I doubt it. I think it would be a lot harder to implement on the drive system of an e-bike, and may feel strange to the rider.

The main problem with mopeds is that they are not allowed on trails (no motorized vehicles). E-bikes are something of a grey area, since they are pedal assist. (Apparently they can move under their own power, but can only go short ranges at a slower top speed.) They technically are motorized but on the other hand, most are using the electric motors along with pedaling, they don't make much of any sound of their own, and don't create fumes on the trail. When I was growing up mopeds were a fad, and I don't ever recall anyone ever pedaling them (unless they ran out of gas).

Serious cyclists tend to look down on them, but I feel that if an e-bike helps improve comfort, ease pain, and/or help someone enjoy cycling more, then more power to 'em.

 

[sKiZo]

Yup on the regenerative braking, but that depends on the motor used. Mine (yes, I went ahead and bought one) doesn't have it. Not sure if cost is that much of a factor, as Rad has another model with it that sells for about the same price. Mostly, I'd be driving up and down the local rails to trails, and visiting the 'hood restaurants and such, so range really shouldn't be an issue. Already got a plan for hauling it on the truck when I go camping, but that would also be just short jumps here and there, as well as the local trails. I usually camp primative, but I can usually borrow a socket for charging batteries and such if needed.

(Should be good for around 40 miles here in the flatlands though. Not too shabby!)

Main reason I went with electric is bad knees and old age creeping up. The RadRover design is also kinda sorta legal on the trails courtesy of recent revisions in the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) which supersedes all those signs posted for "no motorized vehicles allowed". As is, they can't even ask what your disability is, and they can't request documentation proving it, but I am a disabled war vet, and would be more than happy to show them my VA card if asked.

ADA says ...
- an electrically driven bicycle is considered a bicycle
- electric cycle must have less than 750 watt motor
- must have functional pedals
- maximum speed of 20 mph

... Check! All of the above!

Anything more makes it a moped, requiring a special license and definitely banning it from trails and a lot of communities.

Wouldn't expect to get pulled over, but I've already printed up a wallet insert which basically says "neener neener" to the horse they ride in on. <G>

Anyway ... Main thing is to drive responsibly ... not like this guy ... video DOES show what the bike can do though.

PS ... that thumping you hear in the video is the fender banging away on the luggage rack. Simple fix is a couple wraps of velcro on the cross bar. The motor's also a LOT quieter than it sounds because of the camera location. I'm told you can barely hear it under normal use - The tires are actually louder.

Serious cyclists tend to look down on them, but I feel that if an e-bike helps improve comfort, ease pain, and/or help someone enjoy cycling more, then more power to 'em.

There is that ... apparently there's some crazies out there - the type that say not being able to drive a standard bike is nature's way of culling the herd, and BS like that. Then again, anything anyone does is liable to rub somebody somewhere the wrong way, right?

(Read the comments on the video ... some of the aforementioned crazies checked in on that)

Once again, common sense rules ... probably not a good idea to be grinning ear to ear and waving your butt in someone's face as they pant up a grade and you fly by without peddling ... especially if he's bigger than you and has a lot of friends with him. <G>

 

[Wildcat]

My one concern for my own use would be the range. Even the entry-level Specialized offers a similar 40 mile range (the capacity goes up if you get into the pricey models). If I do the Macomb Orchard Trail end to end and back, I would run out of juice before the last half dozen miles. If I did the full run from Richmond to Lake Orion (Macomb Orchard Trail, Clinton River Trail for a few miles, and the Paint Creek Trail--about 72 miles round trip), I would need a spare battery...or two.

One on my bucket list (if I could get in shape ) would be the Katy Trail. It would be a week-long trip, doing from 60-80 miles per day. Beyond that, there are some trails in western Michigan I'm interested in trying, like the Musketawa Trail (Grand Rapids to Muskegon).

So yeah, I need stronger legs...or more batteries.

 

[sKiZo]

I suppose if you're serious about it, a spare battery would be an option, but ... they aren't exactly cheap. One similar to mine will set you back around $400.

A lot of the same rules apply to eBikes as to any other transportation though. Starting to roll is the hardest on the battery, so kick down to the easy gear and peddle some to save watts. Start off slow and use minimum assist, and coast to stops with the assist off. I don't think the Macomb Orchard Trail would be a problem if you pay attention to the details. The RadRover also lets you turn the assist off entirely - should be interesting to see how much effort it takes to keep rolling on flat stretches. The fat tires DO add rolling resistance due to the size of the contact patch, and the bike is around 15 pounds heavier than a normal fat tire bike, but I see folk peddling along nicely here.

One thing I've noticed - the fat tire bikes have pretty much taken over around these parts. I thought it was just a winter thing as they're much more capable on snow and slippery trails, but I was walking the trail today, sunny and dry, with quite a bit of bike traffic, and most of them were FTB's. Then again, it IS still winter here ... I imagine the mix will change come spring.

PS ... Musketawa Trail is on my list, but that would certainly be a stretch without a recharge. I plan to put a carrier on my lil toy Ranger, so take the bike to one of the waypoints and just go halfway and back. I've ridden parts of it doing just that. I'm also supposed to be able to set an alarm on the meter (rumored to be quite accurate) and can be ready to turn around if it looks like there's gonna be a problem. Worse comes to worse, I'll have my cell phone ... wonder if there's any Uber drivers with bike racks? <G>

Oh. I do know that Muskegon has charging stations for electric cars ... free! I imagine I could find a standard wall socket and plug in there for a couple hours while I wander off for some chow. Have to give a yell and see.

 

[Bob Price]

I bought a pre-made Add-motor fat tire that looks just like that photo with the same specs off Amazon last year for a grand. I have not had much time to ride it but I enjoy it when I can. I can go 30 miles on a charge if I have it in pedal assist mode, and 20 miles on full electric. It is fast as well. About 30 mph on flat ground. I am 50 years old now, I got that bike so I know I will make it back home every time. LOL

 

[sKiZo]

Already playing eBike advocate here ... I noticed a couple local communities have auto charging stations now, and sent inquiries to both asking about whether they had facilities for eBikes. Something a simple a some standard outdoor wall sockets located next to a bike rack would be killer. Drive into town, park and plug, visit a local restaurant or something, and come back after a couple hours, if not to a full charge, at least to a lot more reserve than you had. I can see that as popular with the locals who just want to commute from suburbia and have a safe place to park and charge up before walking to their workplace.

It is fast as well. About 30 mph on flat ground.

PS ... the eBikes are legally limited in the US to a top speed of 20mph at full assist (electric power only), but I promise not to tell anyone ... <G>

Oh. Found another nice example of how NOT to drive ... <G>

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=740967479389926

 

[squirrelnest]

Went to a motorcycle show in Washington D.C. an was introduced to ZERO Motorcycles.....impressive performance!

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

 

[sKiZo]

"They sound like Tie fighters ..."

Love that, but ...

"These are not the bikes you're looking for."
​

Those would DEFINITELY get you in trouble on the trails, but they sure do look like fun for boppin' around the 'hood. Then again, I got one of these for the street, so I guess I'm not missing much.

 

[Tom Brennan]

I am 50 years old now, I got that bike so I know I will make it back home every time. LOL

That is no lie; I'm 68 and ride most days and Christ knows when I might break down. It isn't getting easier.

 

[sKiZo]

Yup ... I figure to pedal in the flat lands and use the power assist on hills and such. I'll probably get about as much exercise as I do now but end up covering a whole bunch more miles. Couple places I frequent for coffee or lunch are a bear on a standard bike, and walking is out of the question, so I take the truck ... now I'll still have the two wheel option available. Also be nice to re-discover some of the backwoods trails I've been missing.

I did try a standard fat tire last season but that was work. As mentioned earlier, weight is a factor, and they've got a lot more rolling resistance due to the size of the contact patch. I gotta say the stability was excellent with them big spinners front and rear. If the stock knobbies on the RadRover are too much work, there's the option of going with a 3.5" road tire that might be worth looking into. Tire pressure can also make a significant difference. The fat tires are good for something like 6 to 30 pounds, and of course, the more air, the less contact, but there you also lose the plush ride and traction.

Worth mentioning - A 29er seemed like an interesting option if you're not into the whole power thing. Little more work to get rolling than a standard 26" bike, but they'll eat up a lot more distance due to their size once you get going. Few years back, those were considered ... odd ... but they're getting quite commonplace now.

Oh. This is just cool as hell ... snow riding a RadRover with a drone in "follow mode" ...

 

[Wildcat]

700c tire and wheel sizes are actually quite popular. My bike has them. I don't have a direct comparison to a 26" because my old Schwinn MTB has the semi-knobby tires on it. But the 700c is very easy to pedal. I have them at 100 psi. The larger diameter does help across trail hazards. My daughter's bike that I restored has 700c tires also but it looks a bit funky with the small size frame. They are close to 29" if I'm not mistaken.

That has me thinking how much more efficient an e-bike might be if it used street tires rather than knobby tires.

 

[sKiZo]

Depends where you ride of course, but I understand the Vee Speedsters are a popular option. Already have those on my wish list.

Dual patterns with more rubber in the center ribs where you'd expect most of the wear on hard pack, but with an open tread on the sides for softer terrain. Sounds like a win/win, and they're a whole lot quieter than the knobbies as well. They're 3.5", so you do lose a bit of width and may have to replace the tubes as well, but the RadRover comes with tubes that are rated to fit these tires as well. Nice planning on their part.

One biggie ... mfgs use thinner rubber to keep the weight down on this big balloons, which makes them easier to puncture. I'd say adding kevlar tread liners is almost a must if you do much side of the road riding. Basically just stick them inside the tire between the carcass and tube. On the bright side, the fatter tires are flexible enough you can pop them off the rim enough to patch a tube without having to remove the wheel, so no great down time, and an easy side of the road repair. A simple patch kit and pump are all you need.

 

[Wildcat]

Some of the Specialized tires come in an "Armadillo" version that has increased puncture-resistance, and "Desert Protection" tubes that are thorn-resistant. My bike came with the Trigger Sport, which is a similar dual-purpose design:



The biggest issue for me was the seat. The standard seat was painful. "You just have to get used to it." Nope. "Upgraded" to the Specialized Milano seat. "Have to get used to it." Nope. Tried another one with more padding...nope, nope again. I returned that one and called it a "torture device," much to their amusement. It wasn't until I got a Selle SMP saddle that I cured that problem. I tried the cheapest men's model (the TRK) from Amazon and right away I knew I was onto something good. With the Milano seat, and the lesser-padded stock seat, there were "points" of pain from riding. When I use the Selle SMP, it is more of a general soreness all over that comes from sitting for so long--the weight is evenly distributed along the pelvis (or "sit bones" as they refer to them) so I no longer have any sore spots. I am considering getting one of their better seats that has more gel padding for my Crosstrail (the TRK Gel, or TRK Plus), but would stick this one on a second bike in a heartbeat. Might even get some in the ladies' version for the other riders in the house.

This is the basic idea:



All I know is, I feel less tired in the legs if the saddle is comfortable.

 

[sKiZo]

I already got some "monkey butt" pants on my wishlist ... <G>

And before you ask, you wear them UNDER regular pants, and they're shown inside out for display purposes. I wouldn't worry about getting attacked by any horny baboons ... well ... unless you want to be ... ;-}

** The stock saddle on the RadRover gets real good reviews.

Good suspension as is, but I also have one of these on the old wish list:

Gives you a couple inches of adjustable travel, and a simple swap with the stock post.

PS ... soft isn't always best. I had an overstuffed saddle on the motorcycle that would be nasty after a couple hundred miles. Swapped out for a Corbin which felt like a rock when I first got it, but didn't take long to find out the miles just rolled away on it.

 

[Wildcat]

These are the shorts I picked up from Amazon (Canari Velo). With these and the saddle, I've had some good rides. I can do a few miles without the padded shorts, but they do make a big difference. These are made to wear as shorts, although I do wear them under cotton shorts if it is a little cooler, or under sweats if it's below 60.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FIMNCK/

If I turned mine inside out, I might have a green baboon butt. Not sure what that means, in the grand scheme of things (would I attract only green-butted baboons?)...but I'll toss it out there. The only horny thing that could attack me might be a few of the ladies I've encountered on the trails. Although my derelict appearance and heavy breathing tends to keep 'em away...

 

[spartanmanor]

There are some great looking vintage styled electric bikes:

https://www.electricbike.com/italjet-ascot/

 

[sKiZo]

Speaking of heavy breathing ... $5,000 !!

Too rich for my blood, eh.