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Emotiva XDA-1

Very nice :thmbsp: Guess I gotta add some more mp3s to catch up to you guys...Heres my humble setup:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=2295&pictureid=15269
My new HTPC Major OverKill... I know but hey I plan on using it as a overclocked gamer after it serves a few years of HTPC duty....:D
Intel i5/i7 Ivy & Sandy Bridge CPUs : Intel Core i7-3770K Ivy Bridge 3.5GHz (3.9GHz Turbo) Quad Core 8000K
Intel i5 / i7 CPU Fans : Intel Socket 1156/1155 CPU fan
Intel i3/i5/i7 Ivy & Sandy Bridge Motherboards : Gigabyte G1.Sniper, Z77, Onboard Video, DVI & HDMI, X-fire & SLI, SATA3, USB 3.0, GB LAN
DDR3 Dual Channel memory : 32GB (4x8GB) PC12800 DDR3 1600 Dual Channel
PCI-Express Video cards : AMD Radeon HD 7850 2GB PCI Express 16x dual head DVI, HDMI
TV Tuner & Capture cards : Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 HDTV TV Tuner/ Video Recorder PCI Exp w/ Remote
Hard Drives : 240.0 GB SSD Sandisk Extreme State Drive, SATA3 6.0Gb/s, 550MBs
Hard Drives : 1500.0 GB Western Digital Black 7200RPM SATA 3 6.0Gb/s 64m cache
DVD Recorders : Sony 24x SATA DVD Recorder Dual Layer +R/RW -R/RW
DVD Recorders : LG Blu-ray 12X Recorder,16x LightScribe DVD Recorder SATA combo drive
Sound Cards : Realtek HD digital audio (onboard)
Network Cards : Ethernet network adapter (onboard)
Cases : APEVIA X-Master Black, Desktop, Media Center Stile , front USB,iEEE
Case Fans : Dual Case Fans 120 mm Extra Quiet DC fan (two fans)
Power Supply : Thermaltake TR2 650W ultra quiet ATX Power Supply, SLI & X-fire ready
Keyboards : Logitech Wireless Desctop MK320 Keyboard & Optical mouse combo black
Operating Systems : Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit DVD w/SP1 & Win 8 Pro Upgrade offer
 
Serious horsepower canstacker!!! Love it. You can never have too much!!

I just added some 120 gig SSD's to my 2 HTPC's. Boot time in under 8 seconds!! Love it.

Jimmy
 
SoNic67 said:
You wasted so much money on system and nothing on sound card?
Of course, if mp3 is your preffered format, it doesn't matter, sounds like... garbage anyway.
Click to expand...

I imagine he is sending a digital signal out on USB directly to a DAC and ignoring the onboard sound card?
 
USB out to V-link to XDA-1 to pre/pro to amps I left out the sound card on purpose. You might be surprised at how good the newer onboard sound is though, and sound is also sent out through the HDMI for blu ray and dvd. This system is going to be for much more then HTPC so I don't feel I've wasted anything. Right now is a good time to upgrade with ivy bridge pcie 3 and ssd. mp3 sound like well mp3 Most of my music is mp3 but have been re ripping to FLAC For my mid-fi system it sounds good enough for me. Still wish I had all the vinyl my mom tossed when I was a kid......
Now back to the threads topic the XDA-1 which makes those mp3s sound less like garbage. Well I do like Garbage. their music is pretty good.
 
I felt my XDA-1 was worth $250 and is a steal at $199 And if you don't like it you can always put it on the bay. See them sell out fast on there for top dollar. I leave the vol on 80 and let my Kenwood do the preamp vol control. My Kenwood showed a clipping light at first so I reduced the signal by 3db for that input and it's been fine since. I think the XDA puts out a stronger signal then say a cd player. I think it sounds really good.
 
I have been listening to mine so far as the Pre-Amp in my system as the cable lengths were just not right to stick it in the Audio Research Pre Amp where the Benchmark had been.

It can really stun you sometimes what an upgrade or difference removing anentire link from the chain can do for/to the sound.
The ARC is no slouch clearly and the Benchmark DAC did not sound better to me used as the Pre Amp but the Emotiva is more than decent in that role.
I have also tried my Proceed CDP in both capacities this way and it too always sounded better when run through a Pre Amp.

So I guess as good as the Emotiva sounds now it may even get better if I redo the system to insert it where it belongs between the pre Amp and digital sources?
 
I have not tried my XDA as a pre amp, my Kenwood has pre outs for front center sub side surround and back surround and it is used only as a pre pro For most music and video I use the multi channel for sound to all 10 speakers. And for real music listening I use the 2.1 front and sub. Sounds good enough to me, but I live right next to I-80, a large train yard and a very busy frontage road...so I have to drown out the jake brakes, sonic booms from train cars slamming together, dull constant roar of diesel train engines, loud harleys, and those kids with the car stereos that are 1000 times louder than my home system. But hey the rent is cheap and no one complains when I crank it real loud.
 
canstacker said:
I felt my XDA-1 was worth $250 and is a steal at $199 And if you don't like it you can always put it on the bay. See them sell out fast on there for top dollar. I leave the vol on 80 and let my Kenwood do the preamp vol control. My Kenwood showed a clipping light at first so I reduced the signal by 3db for that input and it's been fine since. I think the XDA puts out a stronger signal then say a cd player. I think it sounds really good.
Click to expand...


When talking with a tech at Emotiva a few weeks ago I asked him out it's meek 1v nominal output voltage. He assured me that it was just a number and that it's peak output voltage via RCA is 7v. This could by why you were clipping the input of your Kenwood.

At times I feel the output signal is a little bit weak from the Emotiva but the further I go up with the volume the more pleased I am with it. I've never got it all the way up to 80 as it would likely be way too loud. 55 is the highest I ever take it to, and even then it's crankin' pretty hard.

-Steven
 
StevenZ said:
When talking with a tech at Emotiva a few weeks ago I asked him out it's meek 1v nominal output voltage. He assured me that it was just a number and that it's peak output voltage via RCA is 7v. This could by why you were clipping the input of your Kenwood.

At times I feel the output signal is a little bit weak from the Emotiva but the further I go up with the volume the more pleased I am with it. I've never got it all the way up to 80 as it would likely be way too loud. 55 is the highest I ever take it to, and even then it's crankin' pretty hard.

-Steven
Click to expand...
That makes sense, the light would only come on once in a while. I could have reduced the vol on the Emotiva but my Kenwood manual said to reduce the input which worked great. I had read somewhere that the vol control was not the best? And that most set it at 80 and just used it as a dac.
I know that there was some issue early on with vol that was fixed, what I'm saying is that the design is not the best way to do vol control. Dunno it still sounds great to me so no real issues if it sounds good right?
 
It does seem a little odd thinking about it that there is no way to take the VC out of the circuit if used as just a DAC.
There is also no mention in the "Manual" about this at all and there was no manual either.

Other DAC I have used allow selecting a variable of fixed level output but there seems to be no provision to do this here?
 
Yeah, I kind of wish it had a switch for fixed output voltage instead of variable for the same reason.
 
Bringing the "volume" up to full 80 is full output. The XDA-1 does not have a volume control. What you are doing when you raise or lower the "volume" is adding or subtracting "bits". It works in the digital circuit on the digital side, unlike a volume that works on the output side and just raises or lowers the output signal. This is why the XDA-1 has such a quiet noise floor regardless of level. The early units had a glitch that would subtract too many bits at the lowest point making the sound take too long to ramp up to full. The "digital ladder unity gain control", as used in the XDA-1, uses more bits in the digital domain making the ramping up and down more even. So keep in mind that although we all say it has a volume control, in reality it does not. A volume control would degrade the sound at some level, but on the XDA-1 there is no effect on signal at all except to add more bits, ie 12 bits at is lowest, and 24 bits at full output.

Jimmy
 
JimmyNeutron said:
Bringing the "volume" up to full 80 is full output. The XDA-1 does not have a volume control. What you are doing when you raise or lower the "volume" is adding or subtracting "bits". It works in the digital circuit on the digital side, unlike a volume that works on the output side and just raises or lowers the output signal. This is why the XDA-1 has such a quiet noise floor regardless of level. The early units had a glitch that would subtract too many bits at the lowest point making the sound take too long to ramp up to full. The "digital ladder unity gain control", as used in the XDA-1, uses more bits in the digital domain making the ramping up and down more even. So keep in mind that although we all say it has a volume control, in reality it does not. A volume control would degrade the sound at some level, but on the XDA-1 there is no effect on signal at all except to add more bits, ie 12 bits at is lowest, and 24 bits at full output.

Jimmy
Click to expand...

Well.....if only that were true?
I have been on the website this morning where they talk about the original claim as you have just stated and then go on to say that while that is what was spec'ed that is not what was produced?
Interesting read and somewhat frustrating too.

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=preampdac&action=display&thread=24484
Reply#8

Even if it were an attenuator that merely reduced output from max to zero it would be better than it is but now with no reference level or setting known it really is sort of hit or miss.

On another note,I have been messing around with MC after being inspired by your system pics and endorsement of it and I will say it is interesting so far.
Too many toys too little time!

Ed
 
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I am going to be ordering a DAC tonight (99% decided on a Bifrost). While looking into it, I was researching the options for volume control, since the Bifrost doesn't have a volume control, and I was looking at the XDA-1 which I assume attenuates the input digitally. During my digging I came across some articles that claimed that digital attenuation can actually lead to a lower SNR than a high quality analog attenuation. The way it was explained was that when you attenuate the signal digitally, you raise the noise level closer to the signal level (or lower the signal level closer to the noise level?). Whereas if you have the digital signal going to the DAC at full volume, you have a higher SNR which you then attenuate on the analog side, keeping the SNR at the same high figure....

They then got into how this is less of a concern on 24bit sources compared to redbook, etc.

Maybe I should have started a different thread for this, but it came up while I was looking into the XDA-1 vs. the Bifrost (which they are both susceptible to if this explanation is correct).

Thoughts?

P.S. - HERE is one of the articles I came across...
 
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AVService said:
Well.....if only that were true?
I have been on the website this morning where they talk about the original claim as you have just stated and then go on to say that while that is what was spec'ed that is not what was produced?
Interesting read and somewhat frustrating too.

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=preampdac&action=display&thread=24484
Reply#8

Even if it were an attenuator that merely reduced output from max to zero it would be better than it is but now with no reference level or setting known it really is sort of hit or miss.

On another note,I have been messing around with MC after being inspired by your system pics and endorsement of it and I will say it is interesting so far.
Too many toys too little time!

Ed
Click to expand...

Hey Ed, Emotiva's website leaves a lot to be desired from company comment. I'm a member there as well but the answers I got to questions were as varied as the amount of people who responded! I ended up calling in and had a long and friendly talk with Lonnie - Emotiva's CEO and chief designer. He explained to me what I paraphrased in my last post. Give him a call, he actually answers his phone. The weird part is even after I posted this on the board over there no one gave it a thought and continued the thread like nothing. Oh well. Whatev's. At the end of the day it's an amazing DAC for the price that is just as flexible in how you can use it. Have fun with it.

Jimmy
 
Interesting for sure but of course now I don't know what I think?

So did he mention a particular reference level to set the control to when used as a straight DAC?
Or are you saying that it really does not matter?

Like you said it is an amazing item for the price which is why I picked it up.
This won't be even my 4th in line DAC for my main system but it is more of a "Swiss Army DAC" really that can do a lot on a small box.
Speaking of which I wish the box was smaller? and Rack mountable but I like it the way it is too.

Ed
 
JimmyNeutron said:
Bringing the "volume" up to full 80 is full output. The XDA-1 does not have a volume control. What you are doing when you raise or lower the "volume" is adding or subtracting "bits". It works in the digital circuit on the digital side, unlike a volume that works on the output side and just raises or lowers the output signal. This is why the XDA-1 has such a quiet noise floor regardless of level. The early units had a glitch that would subtract too many bits at the lowest point making the sound take too long to ramp up to full. The "digital ladder unity gain control", as used in the XDA-1, uses more bits in the digital domain making the ramping up and down more even. So keep in mind that although we all say it has a volume control, in reality it does not. A volume control would degrade the sound at some level, but on the XDA-1 there is no effect on signal at all except to add more bits, ie 12 bits at is lowest, and 24 bits at full output.

Jimmy
Click to expand...

Actually guys, Jimmy is spot on. Regardless of what another thread and/or forum says, this is the true answer to the volume attenuation of the XDA-1. If you guys have any questions regarding technical specifications and/or functionality of an Emotiva product I highly suggest you call Emotiva's Technical department and have a chat. They are very nice people to talk with and are knowledgeable about their products.

In fact, I just got off the phone with an Emotiva tech and he explained to me exactly what Jimmy said. The only way to get a truly lossless signal from the XDA-1 is to run it "wide open" at maximum volume and use an external form of volume control. I was also told that if you hooked up high dollar measuring equipment you can actually measure the bit loss, but in a real world application you would be hard pressed to hear any difference at all. As well, Benchmark is using this same digital volume control in a few of their reference products.

Also, I need to correct an earlier statement I made. The XDA-1 does NOT peak at 7V, rather, at maximum volume it is stable at 1v via RCA outputs. This too was confirmed from a conversation with a tech. Though slightly confusing, I was told 7v peak from a previous conversation with a different tech (if memory serves me, it was the head tech). So this is really up in the air and is anyone's guess but he did confirm that the analog outputs from the ERC-2 are hotter than the analog outputs of the XDA-1.

One more thing I should mention. I talked a little bit about the XDA-2 and it is confirmed that it will have USB 24/192 capabilities, a headphone output, analog volume control, and a few other goodies. Guestimated price will be from $399-499 and is due to hit the states in 1-2 months, 3 max.


Cheers,
Steven
 
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Yep, those Emotiva guys are easy to reach and talk to....gotta love that about a company that still answers their phone. While I was talking to Lonnie I asked him several questions - from volume control, to output voltages, to which is better...RCA or XLR. Here is what he said:

1: Max line output voltage is 7-8 volts. This makes the standard 1-2 volts even and exactly nominal.

2: Volume control loses bits, not signal, at lower volume. This is because it's a digital volume control and this is how they work, and is much more precise than an analog one. An analog volume would become unstable between left/right at lower volumes, and raise noise at higher.

3: If using it strictly as a DAC then leave the "volume" at full - 80.

4: The USB input on the XDA-1 is a standard input with a resolution up to 24/48. 24/192 is achieved only with the COAX and SPDIF inputs - if your source can output it.

5: The XDA-1 has a true balanced output circuit - not a "piggy-backed on RCA" circuit. To get the best sound and lowest noise floor use the XLR's. Of course every other component in your system MUST be fully balanced output as well.

6: Rack mounts available for the XDA-1.

These were just some of the things we talked about in our 30 conversation. From the designer himself. Oh, I will say that I ordered several pairs of XLR cables from Emotiva's store and am very happy with the contruction and quality. I hooked them up in my McIntosh system as it has fully ballanced circuits all the way to the amplifier outputs. How does it sound? Well, I'm biased!!! :D But honestly, it sounds great. Did the XLR cables bring it up a level or two? I don't know, and really I could'nt care less. It's a fairly inexpensive upgrade IMO.

Jimmy
 
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Snagged one of these today from the bay, it will be my first encounter of the DAC kind. Not sure what to expect, but I'm sure it will generate a total redistribution of amps and speakers, pre or no, Advents or TimeFrames, etc...... Too many combinations really. I'm thinking the two optical inputs will be occupied with my WD TV Live, and Roku XS streamers, both of which I've discovered will stream FLAC files. And maybe the USB port connected to my PC. I see much re-ripping in my future as well. Questions to follow I"m sure, it should arrive on Monday. I hear Tom Petty in the background....
 
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