ESS AMT3 Heil Sickness-Continuing Saga Of Changes And Improvements

[automojo]

Just curious, have you guys considered doing a 2 1/2 way on these? Using the bottom woofer to supplement the bass.

My AMT 3s are gutted now. The Heil Tweeters are sitting on my Tannoy monitors as a Super Tweeter. I can't wait for the final results here...

As I recall, one of the modern Heil 'clones' uses 2 woofers croosed over at different points.
In the AMT3, the mid woofer/transition driver takes care of this, and works great.

I think some perspective in this thread, and most of my comments on the AMT3 need to be taken.
When refurbed correctly, the stock speaker really sounds great when driven with the proper equipment.
My take is to improve on a already great design, fine tuning if you will.
Someone mentioned in another thread "a speaker that need to be improved has basic design flaws".
A pretty narrow minded take, and really lacks insight "beyond the box".
DIY, innovation and improvements are the driving engine of technology, medicine etc, etc.
If you think about it, everything can be improved-nothing is "perfect", or the end all be all.
If you are fine with what you have, awesome.
But the want (need?) to improve something (to "upgrade") comes from a different perspective, and not one that necessarily looks at everything in a negative connotation, a positive, build on strengths one.
As far as the AMT3's go- sad to hear you decided to gut them. Not sure why you wanted to mention this here:scratch2:
IMHO you gave up pretty quick http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=5835894#post5835894gave http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=5837098#post5837098 . to each his own. Another ESS speaker scraped...( not to mention their best model):thumbsdn:
Refurbing and upgrading is alot of work, and it's not for everyone. But at least in the case of my 'Super AMT3's, the work was well worth the end results.
And this was the reasoning of this thread.
The thread isn't titled "Gutting MY AMT3's".
Hopefully the Heil works well in this application, although IMHO using it as a super tweeter negates some of it's advantages when used properly. Not to mention having one of the better platforms at hand to really hear what they can do, not to mention nice cabinets (per your quote).
If you didn't want to tackle the refurb, why not just sell them to someone who appreciates them?
Even in their un-original state. Decent cab's and the original 17 pleat Heil, the transition driver and woofers, as has been mentioned in this thread (and others) can be replaced with modern equivalents with some work.
I don't meant to sound harsh-just don't like hearing about the gutting...

 

[automojo]

OK.
Sorry for the rant....
Just got the Aura's. Pretty nice construction for the price. I made a mock up adapter out of Masonite to give 'em a try.
Well I have to say Ron's advice was very good-excellent clean mid bass, really impressive, and the upper mids as well. Very clean sounding speaker.
I like it!:thmbsp:
I will have to run I side by side with the Alpha 6A-should prove to be interesting.
In the mean time, I'm going to have some laser cut ABS adapter made up for a better mount.
The Aura would work great with the AMT3's with the smaller tubes (aka Chef), and the price can't be beat.
Again, thanks Ron for the input, helpful as always!:thmbsp:

 

[ron-c]

You should use two clamps at 9 and 3 oclock to hold the mids in then you don't need an adaptor.

Thanks,
Ron-C

 

[automojo]

You should use two clamps at 9 and 3 oclock to hold the mids in then you don't need an adaptor.

Thanks,
Ron-C

I thought of this-but the contact surface IMHO seems a bit small (slim)-it works, but I would like something more solid.
I figured out the dimensions, and had my wife draw it up, and a fowarded it to this company, prices seem reasonable, but I havne't gotten the quote back.
I will attached the adapter to the Aura with ABS glue, and then clamp the whole works down.


http://www.customlasercutting.com/info/materials

Plus I want more easily rotate different mids out for some experimentation and fun.
This speaker is pretty neat-solid design but a feather weight compared to the Alpha 6A, and stock foam surround mid-even lighter weight then the Peerless stock mid.

 

[automojo]

All the parts expect for the Re-Mov arrived, now just need some free time to do the work.

Eminence woofers look nice. Gasket on one was damaged in transit, Orange County said i could reattach it myself with RTV which I did.

When I measure the before and after response curves, what is the preferred location for my RTA mic?

Thanks

I can relate-I had some gasket rubbing as well.
1 meter.
If you decide you want to move the O.E. woofers-let me know-I know someone you should want them.

 

[kwingylee]

As I recall, one of the modern Heil 'clones' uses 2 woofers croosed over at different points.
In the AMT3, the mid woofer/transition driver takes care of this, and works great.

I think some perspective in this thread, and most of my comments on the AMT3 need to be taken.
When refurbed correctly, the stock speaker really sounds great when driven with the proper equipment.
My take is to improve on a already great design, fine tuning if you will.
Someone mentioned in another thread "a speaker that need to be improved has basic design flaws".
A pretty narrow minded take, and really lacks insight "beyond the box".
DIY, innovation and improvements are the driving engine of technology, medicine etc, etc.
If you think about it, everything can be improved-nothing is "perfect", or the end all be all.
If you are fine with what you have, awesome.
But the want (need?) to improve something (to "upgrade") comes from a different perspective, and not one that necessarily looks at everything in a negative connotation, a positive, build on strengths one.
As far as the AMT3's go- sad to hear you decided to gut them. Not sure why you wanted to mention this here:scratch2:
IMHO you gave up pretty quick http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=5835894#post5835894gave http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=5837098#post5837098 . to each his own. Another ESS speaker scraped...( not to mention their best model):thumbsdn:
Refurbing and upgrading is alot of work, and it's not for everyone. But at least in the case of my 'Super AMT3's, the work was well worth the end results.
And this was the reasoning of this thread.
The thread isn't titled "Gutting MY AMT3's".
Hopefully the Heil works well in this application, although IMHO using it as a super tweeter negates some of it's advantages when used properly. Not to mention having one of the better platforms at hand to really hear what they can do, not to mention nice cabinets (per your quote).
If you didn't want to tackle the refurb, why not just sell them to someone who appreciates them?
Even in their un-original state. Decent cab's and the original 17 pleat Heil, the transition driver and woofers, as has been mentioned in this thread (and others) can be replaced with modern equivalents with some work.
I don't meant to sound harsh-just don't like hearing about the gutting...

Sorry man... I haven't scrapped them. I still have the cabinets (in mint condition), the grills (one of the frames beyond repair), one AMT3 badge. I took all the drivers out. All except the Heil tweeter and one midrange is original, and that midrange needs to be refoamed.
The woofers are all Radio shack types.
So I can still rebuild these if I want. I just wanted YOU to finish your upgrade, report the results before I pull the trigger.
I want to do this ONCE, As I will most likely not going to be able to get out what I put in if I decide to sell. Working good conditions AMT3s seem to be hovering around the $500/pr mark. New Daytons/1040SFs and Alpha 6As will set me back that much.
I am sporadically checking ebay to see if I can get a deal on the drivers. If I find them, I may pull the trigger.

I have enough speakers in my collection so I am really not in a hurry.

 

[automojo]

Sorry man... I haven't scrapped them. I still have the cabinets, the grills, one AMT3 batch. I took all the drivers out. All except the Heil tweeter and one midrange is original, and that midrange needs to be refoam.
The woofers are all Radio shack types.
So I can still rebuild these if I want. I just wanted YOU to finish your upgrade, report the results before I pull the trigger.
I want to do this ONCE, As I will most likely not going to be able to get out what I put in if I decide to sell. Working good conditions AMT3s seem to be hovering around the $500/pr mark. New Daytons/1040SFs and Alpha 6As will set me back that much.
I am sporadically checking ebay to see if I can get a deal on the drivers. If I find them, I may pull the trigger.

I have enough speakers in my collection so I am really not in a hurry.

That's cool....
I'm glad your not in a hurry, because with my current schedule, 1 hr a week if I'm lucky.
Glad to hear you still want to upgrade them.
I think the investment is relative. If you do a respectable job upgrading them, the end result sound wise is a step up or 2 from stock in lower distortion (especially at higher volumes) and a cleaner low end.
I know the vintage-keep it stock thing, but listening is really the proof.
I'm not too worried, as my 2 pair aren't going anywhere till I pass. I have made up a few sheets describing the mods-that will be stuffed in each speaker-so who ever ends up with them in 40 years or so will know what I did, and why.
Hopefully the stock drivers will stay with them as well.
As far as as the Dayton's vs 1040sf's-it's a matter of taste in bass, as mentioned.
The 1040's need a Zobel IMHO, but even then, I found my self having to turn the bass control down a bit-as it was too over powering. Your results may differ.
The Dayton's' IMHO are cleaner then stock, yet mimic the stock bass curve to a point, yet can handle a boost if you need it with out getting muddy, and can play louder without compressing. Useful output to 32-34hz is plenty IMHO, but again a matter of taste. One nice thing is you won't need to re foam the drivers in 10-15 years-with 8 woofers this can get expensive quickly.
They still have the paper cone sound, without getting to overly warm-which to me gets wearing to my ears. You don't lose any musicality, just cleaning it up.

 

[sbradley02]

First one is completed, playing it now, breaking in the woofers, though I have read response doesn't change much. Frequency response still shows a bass peak (much of which is room gain) but it is lower than before and the lower mid and mid is more even now. Also interesting, 25Hz is up 4dB.

On to the second. Will post photos later.

 

[automojo]

Cool.
The bass peak will become more prominent with break in. They take a while, and least in my situation.
Like I mentioned-you may like this peak- (also room considerations) if not consider a Zobel (post#25).

 

[sbradley02]

Cool.
The bass peak will become more prominent with break in. They take a while, and least in my situation.
Like I mentioned-you may like this peak- (also room considerations) if not consider a Zobel (post#25).

If I could pull the speaker 2' into the room bass would be perfect, but since I can't, a Zobel sounds like a good idea. Bass hump is better but not gone. Do you have the values? A 'classic' Zobel looks to be ~ 6 ohm in series with ~ 35uF. Not sure if this is what you were referring to. This would be a good time to get the parts since I am stalled a couple of days since I destroyed one of the inductors on the second speaker (don't ask).

Re-Mov was worthless BTW, found that Goof Off worked rather well. Both boards were burnt at the 2 ohm location, I ground down the board and reinforced with epoxy.

Photos are here: https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/104768547283222898630/albums/5778576453509871009

Fun project!

 

[automojo]

If I could pull the speaker 2' into the room bass would be perfect, but since I can't, a Zobel sounds like a good idea. Bass hump is better but not gone. Do you have a sketch? This would be a good time to get the parts since I am stalled a couple of days since I destroyed one of the inductors on the second speaker (don't ask).

Re-Mov was worthless BTW, found that Goof Off worked rather well. Both boards were burnt at the 2 ohm location, I ground down the board and reinforced with epoxy.

Photos are here: https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/104768547283222898630/albums/5778576453509871009

Fun project!

Nice work!:thmbsp:
To bad on the inductor.
The Ebay crossover I got-one was burned @ the 1 ohm location.
My first set were fine-but I'm leaving those as a spare.
I did a cheap rebuild on them-electrolytics-they actually sound good considering-but will go with a hard wired version with massive inductors and larger gauge wire.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=436155
Yep-that black silicone sucks!:thumbsdn:
You may want to PM bill114 concerning the Zobel- I never firgured it out-since I decided on the Daytons.
He is working at Simply Speakers now.
Yes-I think the classic Zobel is what you are looking for..

 

[sbradley02]

Nice work!:thmbsp:
To bad on the inductor.
The Ebay crossover I got-one was burned @ the 1 ohm location.
My first set were fine-but I'm leaving those as a spare.
I did a cheap rebuild on them-electrolytics-they actually sound good considering-but will go with a hard wired version with massive inductors and larger gauge wire.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=436155
Yep-that black silicone sucks!:thumbsdn:
You may want to PM bill114 concerning the Zobel- I never firgured it out-since I decided on the Daytons.
He is working at Simply Speakers now.
Yes-I think the classic Zobel is what you are looking for..

Thanks

Got a response, yes it is a classic Zobel. I can use some capacitors left over from the rebuild so all I need are a couple of resistors which I ordered along with the replacement inductor.

Edit: If anyone else does this don't make the same mistake I did and forget to use the paralleled values for the two woofers - another order submitted...

 

[chef free]

Yep-that black silicone sucks!:thumbsdn:

It really does a job on your baffles!

 

[automojo]

Thanks

Got a response, yes it is a classic Zobel. I can use some capacitors left over from the rebuild so all I need are a couple of resistors which I ordered along with the replacement inductor.

Edit: If anyone else does this don't make the same mistake I did and forget to use the paralleled values for the two woofers - another order submitted...

Post what you come up with on the Zobel (values-etc), and the listening results, if you will-should be helpful-thanks!:thmbsp:

 

[automojo]

After listening more to the Aura 6 (a better mount) I think it is no doubt the low cost champ for the AMT3's.
It does get fairly warm, but it seems pretty tough.
A direct comparison with the Alpha 6A-the Alpha has more output (with a updated crossover) and needs a bit of l-padding (the Aura may also at times).
A lpad is a cheap solution and works well.
The Alpha 6A is IMHO more cleaner sounding in the upper range it's used in the AMT3, and has a flatter response.
The Aura seems to have a mid bass bump (the AMT 3 tube is 6.37l-sealed) and drops off more shallow in the lower regions then the Alpha which gives it more mid-bass, which is very clean.
This may be a good combination with the stock woofers-the Dayton ST-255 don't seem to need any help when ported correctly. I still like the Alpha 6A combination with the Dayton's-as the upper clarity out weighs the the mid bass of the Aura.
As I mentioned earlier, I think the Alpha 6A gives the Audax HM130CO a serious run for the money-the Audax doesn't need to be padded-but the Audax needs a adapter- touche.
The Alpha can also handle more power, and there is no risk of a blow out, reaching Xmax, etc in high power listening.
I keep the Auras around-I may swap them out later when I get everything ironed out.

 

[ron-c]

Aura's NRT technology obviously works as we use it on many of the current Mcintosh speakers. Low distortion and fast transient response along with a smooth impedance curve allow a nice match to the Heil. I find the heil at the bright setting is the best match on the AMT3s.

Thanks,
Ron-C

 

[automojo]

I agree, it's a great driver.
Not giving up on it just yet-just initial thoughts on it.
I have to agree though, both the Alpha and the Aura seem to out perform the stock paper cone/foam surround transition driver (with a stock cone).
It also needs some break in-so it's not a fair comparison yet. The foam surround is fairly substantial for a inexpensive driver.
The Alpha need little breakin with the cloth surround.
Obviously the transition diver isn't running 'full range' in the AMT3, so IMHO you would really have to push it to overdrive it-if you still have the stock fuses-they will blow way before then.
I need to get this sealed up better, as a can still feel some leaks.
My mid tube sealing ledges are fairly narrow, and the driver is hard to center-thus the need to my adapters.
Once I get these, it will be a more fair comparison.

 

[sbradley02]

Both speakers are now done. Zobels in both. From the meter, looks like the Zobel is having an impact, a few dB less in the mid-bass (still a peak - some of this is room gain).

Now to enjoy the results of my labor and see what I think of them :beer:

 

[automojo]

Good job-glad the Zobel worked.
I would maker sure they are away from any cabinets next to the sides, as this made a big difference when I had my 1040's.
Here is a PDF copy of the adapter I have drawn up for mounting the Aura NS6's. This would be for the larger mid tube.
I will attach this adapter to the Aura, probably with a bead of silicone (to help attach and damp) and (4) #6 screws, and Dremel the tips off on the reverse side and dap with Epoxy.
I am also going to spray some Quiet Kote on the internal (reverse) side, and use 2 speaker clamps, as Ron mentioned, at 6 and 9 o'clock, and use some foam to seal the assy. The speaker clamps will use Hurricane nuts and #8 machine screws.
This should dampen any resonance, and provide a secure mount.
Edit:sorry deleted this one as it had too much personal info....

 

[automojo]

1:1 Scale Aura NS6 AMT3 Midtube Adapter Copy

Thought I would add this, for those who want to make their own.
Masonite was my first choice, but I wanted a nice clean look, and these weren't very expensive.
I don't have router etc, so have to farm this out.
There rates are much more reasonable and they don't have a problem with one offs.
To save money-you have to make the drawing to their specs, otherwise it's on the clock @ $60/hr.
I had my wife draw this up.
I got a quote from Tap plastic last year for some Audax HM130Co's adapters, and they wanted $100 for 2 adapters