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ESS AMT3 Heil Sickness-Continuing Saga Of Changes And Improvements

automojo said:
Th ESS driver should work.
I'm not all that good at wood working either.
I just thought out the brace-2 "C" shapes, and one board from side to side.
The holes were a hole saw, slightly undersized, and a sanding drum to fine tune the size-epoxy to hold them in.
I got the tubes from P.E.-closeout, and had a exhaust/muffler guy cut them for me as a favor-so they would be straight.
I will have to check- but the volume actually calculates to around 2.4 cu. ft(with mid tube/woofers)-so this is why the Dayton works well-smallish enclosures.
Click to expand...

Thanks, please let me know what you get for volume, though as you mention there are few choices out there with a very low Vas.

I'll check the ESS woofer for fitment also. Since it is 10 5/8" wide I suspect it would require routing, which puts me back into wood work :nono:
 
Not sure on the after market diaphragms-never heard of that-some stock ones sound better then others-the AMT3's came with subjectively the best ones-17 pleat-no screen.
At the very least you want each to be the same types as some have a slight more efficiency then others.
The internal volume is 72 L.-which is around 2.54 cu ft, accounting for the mid tube only-so 2.3-2.4 is a safe bet. Poly stuffing, or foam will add some apparent volume, so it will need to be fine tuned.
With the Dayton's' I'm lining the lower walls with P.E. 1 1/2 convoluted foam, and the stock stuffing loosely filling the rest.
This sounds pretty good with initial experiments, but it may need to be fine tuned.
The "Supers" will also use the Alpha 6A over the stock mid-it seems to blend well with the Dayton's.
 
automojo said:
Not sure on the after market diaphragms-never heard of that-some stock ones sound better then others-the AMT3's came with subjectively the best ones-17 pleat-no screen.
At the very least you want each to be the same types as some have a slight more efficiency then others.
The internal volume is 72 L.-which is around 2.54 cu ft, accounting for the mid tube only-so 2.3-2.4 is a safe bet. Poly stuffing, or foam will add some apparent volume, so it will need to be fine tuned.
With the Dayton's' I'm lining the lower walls with P.E. 1 1/2 convoluted foam, and the stock stuffing loosely filling the rest.
This sounds pretty good with initial experiments, but it may need to be fine tuned.
The "Supers" will also use the Alpha 6A over the stock mid-it seems to blend well with the Dayton's.
Click to expand...

Thanks much

I'll check the diaphrams some day but will probably leave them be. I do want to get a spare set though in case ESS goes away.

I ran a bunch of drivers through calculations using the stock port. Really hard to find anything that works. I know that doing it on paper only gets you so far... Most are seriously over damped or more commonly badly under damped and this was with selecting low Vas drivers.

The ESS cast frame is seriously under damped though it has good extension. Just as well since it won't fit the stock baffle openings.

The Eminence is a little under damped but much less than most. I can see why this one is popular.

The Dayon is neutral tending towards over damped, looks like it would be on the polite side. This is of course using the stock port and doesn't include room gain.

The only 'new' contender I could find is the HiVi W10. Really nice graphs. But at $190 each it isn't going to happen for me, and it is oversize it is more like 11".

Right now I am tending towards the Eminence as a reasonable compromise between ultimate performance and ease of rework, using a stock cabinet, even though the Dayton seems like a superior driver. I have little doubt that the Eminence would be far more linear than what is in the speakers now. I'll do a measured response curve before and after and see...

Will definitely put a sheet of Sonex in the back of the cabinets - I have a ton laying around.

Still can't figure out how to embed photos...

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/album.php?albumid=2402
 
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I will have to look at my sheets-The Dayton in my calculations extended down a bit farther before roll of (fairly step).
As I recall they were fairly similiar to the 1040Sf-sans the hump-around -15db @ 30 hz.
With the twin ports-the port speed is down to near ideal levels.
 
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automojo said:
I will have to look at my sheets-The Dayton in my calculations extended down a bit farther before roll of (fairly step).
As I recall they were fairly similiar to the 1040Sf-sans the hump-around -15db @ 30 hz.
With the twin ports-the port speed is down to near ideal levels.
Click to expand...

Sure would like to see it, I may have used different data for my calcs.

I am convinced the Dayton is a better performer in this application (and a better driver - rubber surround for example) but the Eminence seems like a reasonable performer and the only one I could find that is a 'drop in' replacement. Has to be way better than the randomly chosen driver put in by the speaker repair shop. I didn't hook up my RTA to my computer but it looks like around +6dB @ 100Hz, and it is definitely audible.
 
I agree- the 1040Sf is a great driver, and is more or less a drop in. I lived with them for 1 1/2 years or so.
The bump becomes more audible after break-in-but as mentioned can be tamed enough with a Zobel.
OCS does run 15% off sales- but usually you have to be a previous customer-but a e-mail to Eric would be recommended. Usually he will throw you the deal at some point.
The shipping from them is a little high-but it is what it is.
Too bad I sold all mine awhile back.
I'm holding on to the O.E.'s just because.
I will post the parameters when I get the chance
 
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automojo said:
I agree- the 1040Sf is a great driver, and is more or less a drop in. I lived with them for 1 1/2 years or so.
The bump becomes more audible after break-in-but as mentioned can be tamed enough with a Zobel.
OCS does run 15% off sales- but usually you have to be a previous customer-but a e-mail to Eric would be recommended. Usually he will throw you the deal at some point.
The shipping from them is a little high-but it is what it is.
Too bad I sold all mine awhile back.
I'm holding on to the O.E.'s just because.
I will post the parameters when I get the chance
Click to expand...

Took the plunge on the Eminence. Yes, shipping was high...
Now to wait for parts to come in from all over
 
Awesome!:thmbsp:
You will be happy with them.
Personally I would try them as is-you can always add the Zobel later.
I would also make sure you seal the cabinet seams, as seal the drivers.
It's also beneficial to pull the stuffing apart when you re-stuff them, so there are no clumps etc-it makes a difference.
I woulds also give the black exterior surfaces a new coat of paint to help stabilize the surfaces-and use the Hurricane Nut's and epoxy.
 
automojo said:
Awesome!:thmbsp:
You will be happy with them.
Personally I would try them as is-you can always add the Zobel later.
I would also make sure you seal the cabinet seams, as seal the drivers.
It's also beneficial to pull the stuffing apart when you re-stuff them, so there are no clumps etc-it makes a difference.
I woulds also give the black exterior surfaces a new coat of paint to help stabilize the surfaces-and use the Hurricane Nut's and epoxy.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tips. Not sure about the Hurricanes but will definitely do the rest.

Expect a real long write-up when I have it done :D
 
The Hurricanes depend on you baffle condition.
You have to epoxy them-but the are relatively small-as the mounting area is pretty narrow.
One set of mine was in ok shape-the original owner had re foamed them and been rough on the surface-then added caulk, and made a mess.
My second set was in much better shape, but I did both sets.
 
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automojo said:
The Hurricanes depend on you baffle condition.
You have to epoxy them-but the are relatively small-as the mounting area is pretty narrow.
One set of mine was in ok shape-the original owner had re foamed them and been rough on the surface-then added caulk, and made a mess.
My second set was in much better shape, but I did bot sets.
Click to expand...
Luckily my baffles, along with the rest of the cabinets, are nearly pristine, which is why I jumped on the pair.
Ay idea where I can get a replacement for my missing ESS grille badge? :cool:
 
After I look at them, they are fairly close to what I have- the resolution is terrible, so I had to look at mine as a reference.
You can get rid of much of the bumb by adding the 2 ports- 3" x 9.56". The stock port is 6.5cm x 2.375, which puts the stock box tuning around 35.5hz.
As you can see the port speed is huge-so they also need more port, and this would also reduce compression and audible port distortion.
The main differences between the two are the bump, and the more gradual roll of of the 1040SF, and the xmax differences, and overall output to a lesser degree. If you take out the 1040's bump-they are probably more or less equal in output.
This was pretty much what I was looking for, clean (I enjoyed the warm response of the stock woofers-however over time I was looking for something with less coloration) response down to 32-34hz or so-no doubling etc-which mimics the stock woofer-with some more output efficiency. The 1040's were a little too "rich" in the bass for my taste. I was looking for a bit more bass then stock, and a little less of the overly warm character of the Alnico's
I don't really think the Dayton is per say a better driver -just different-like the stock woofers.
Really a matter of taste.
 
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By the way did look at the HiVi- cost and size turned be off-the rest was excellent.
 
automojo said:
After I look at them, they are fairly close to what I have- the resolution is terrible, so I had to look at mine as a reference.
You can get rid of much of the bumb by adding the 2 ports- 3" x 9.56". The stock port is 6.5cm x 2.375, which puts the stock box tuning around 35.5hz.
As you can see the port speed is huge-so they also need more port, and this would also reduce compression and audible port distortion.
The main differences between the two are the bump, and the more gradual roll of of the 1040SF, and the xmax differences, and overall output to a lesser degree. If you take out the 1040's bump-they are probably more or less equal in output.
This was pretty much what I was looking for, clean (I enjoyed the warm response of the stock woofers-however over time I was looking for something with less coloration) response down to 32-34hz or so-no doubling etc-which mimics the stock woofer-with some more output efficiency. The 1040's were a little too "rich" in the bass for my taste. I was looking for a bit more bass then stock, and a little less of the overly warm character of the Alnico's
I don't really think the Dayton is per say a better driver -just different-like the stock woofers.
Really a matter of taste.
Click to expand...

That probably explains the small differences in our plots, I thought the port was 7 x 7cm.

I know I should increase the port, but will pass on cabinet mods at this phase. Maybe I'll get a wood worker to help in the future. Wouldn't require a lot of rework to punch out the existing port hole.

I felt the Dayton was superior for the rubber surround - I hate foam :nono:

Will try to hook up the RTA later to get a current response.

How do I insert photos into a post?
 
All the parts expect for the Re-Mov arrived, now just need some free time to do the work.

Eminence woofers look nice. Gasket on one was damaged in transit, Orange County said i could reattach it myself with RTV which I did.

When I measure the before and after response curves, what is the preferred location for my RTA mic?

Thanks
 
A speaker that works surprisingly well as a mid in the AMT-3 is a 6" Aura that PE has on closeout at $9.00 each. The part number is NS6-255-8A. If they error it is they are a touch too efficient but are perfect if you like a fast, low distortion midbass. Very clean and amazing for the low price. If you play the speakers at real high volumes I would guess you could over drive these but the woofers should give up at about the same time.
The stock AMT-3 woofers are very good if they are new or you can have them re-coned with new voice coils, cones and surrounds. I had a set done and they all measure exactly the same impedance. Using the stock port and acoustic stuff with a full fill in the cabinet they sound great especially with the 250 watt a channel ESS amp which makes sense since that is what they used back then...

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
:thmbsp:Ron brings up a good point-which I completely forgot to mention, especially when using the Daytons-adding 1.5 lbs of poly fill per cu ft (4.05 for the AMT3) gives you roughly 30% gain in apparent volume ( in boxes under 3 cu ft), so you are looking at approx 93.6 liters. This helps flatten the response curve slightly of the Dayton.
I never did really settle on a combination of foam/poly stuffing- but in general the sound better stuffed (with the Daytons) you lose some efficiency with the poly stuffing, but the woofers in this combination are already a 94.82spl, so adding room gain it's not a big deal.
http://web.archive.org/web/20041027...gracaraudio.com/caraudio/resources/fiberfill/
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/boxstuff.htm
This goes against the grain of not stuffing vented speakers- but the resistive ported stuffing of vented speakers (aka Aperiodic more or less) has some strengths to the design. Check out a few of the 'new' speakers in this months Stereophile-Aperiodic is back.
OK Ron- I will have to try the Aura-I like the Alpha 6A alot-but @ $9 ea-what the heck.
Good to see Ron back on a ESS post!
 
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Just curious, have you guys considered doing a 2 1/2 way on these? Using the bottom woofer to supplement the bass.

My AMT 3s are gutted now. The Heil Tweeters are sitting on my Tannoy monitors as a Super Tweeter. I can't wait for the final results here...
 
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